@Rossaoz I believe Vattels definition of natural born citizen requires both, blood and soil. That way you can never have had loyalty to another nation.

Flappingeagle said:

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You need to add one more amendment, the one I mentioned a few tickers back. Every word, punctuation, change, etc, in every bill needs to be owned by at least one current representative and senator. No more slipping in benefits for whoever is paying you the most with no consequences other than your getting richer.

Tickerguy said:

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The thing about fixing the Senate is that the States will enforce that.

That's why the Founders didn't care about it, incidentally. The Senate's original design made the sort of horseshit that has been pulled since the 17th Amendment impossible since if it was attempted the Legislature of the States would recall their Senators and that threat alone was enough to stop the bullshit from ever being passed in the first place.

This may be the first time I have ever totally disagreed with you. There was plenty of graft from the beginning of the country (from the Whiskey Tax onward), not just after the Civil War and the progressive era.

If we seek to really reduce the shenanigans in DC, then we need to force all activity into the light as much as possible. What I propose would help to do that. Furthermore, restricting congress in this way would help both the state legislatures and the people hold our senators and congressmen more accountable for their actions because we would have greater knowledge of what those actions are.

Flap

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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
No sign that housing, equities, or farmland are in a bubble- Yellen 11/14/13
Trying to leave

All government is corrupt.

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Absolutely, that is why we need to force everything out into the open that we can.

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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
No sign that housing, equities, or farmland are in a bubble- Yellen 11/14/13
Trying to leave

I can agree with this.

Question becomes, how to build a concensus that this sort of thing needs to be done? This breaks some serious iron rice bowls.

The current Senate and their funders will fight this to the death because it destroys their livelihoods. That may get broken with the coming upset, though.

Not sure that nationality equals loyalty and nor does country of birth. Some of the most loyal people are foreign born, they knew what a shithole their old country was and are grateful for the opportunity of their new life.
Sometimes the rules countries place around nationalities leads to farces. For example I have a brother in law here in Australia who came from England aged 10, joined the RAN at 15, served in Vietnam, made countless world tours in the navy and after 20 years service left as a CPO, only then did he realise he would need to get Australian citizenship as a civilian to travel. Dumb requirements to get citizenship was to swear loyalty to the queen and promise to defend Australia (stupid to require either of an English born ex serviceman). Meanwhile at the same swearing ceremony were plenty of people with poor English after being here for 2 years and often they return to their home country knowing that their kids will automatically be Australian citizens even if they were born outside Australia and dont speak English.
And that gets to why TFs amendment doesnt work. Plenty of kids are born to citizens but they in no way regard themselves as actually of that country. They see themselves as Mexican or Pakistani or Indian and not as American or Australian or whatever.
How does any country grant citizenship can be a right mess as is what makes a person loyal either to their country of birth, the country they chose to live or the country in their passport.

I can see one more problem with the amendment. As TF says he doesnt know who his biological father is and thus might be a foreigner.
I read that up to 25% of birth certificates list someone as the father who is not the biological father. Now today we have genetic tests that our grandparents didnt have to prove who is the father. But can the government force people to submit to testing to prove who is the father of applicants for government office?
What if the applicants allleged father is dead as would apply to most mature office seekers and when was the last time a US president was sworn in with a living father?
And didnt we ask Obummer whos your daddy?
So perhaps the biological father bit needs reworking to fit in with reality.

Get one state to succeed and adopt said modified constitution

@Neal - Are you suggesting ethno nationalism is what would fit the bill? That ship has mostly sailed in the US, like most of the western countries that have encouraged mass immigration.

I could even add that it can be hard to prove who your mother is as plenty of cases exist of babies being registered as having a different mother to the actual mother.
For example Jack Nicolson only found out after many years that his sister was his actual mother.
Or in Britain until the 20th century the Lord Chamberlain was required to be present at all births to avoid any substitution (like swap a baby girl born for some male baby).
So can you really prove anyones parents are their birth parents?

@Neal - Nope. Sorry, but nope. You have no RIGHT to such office; you either can prove it or you can't.

We have every right as a nation to set the qualifications for office. There is no "right" to hold a federal office.

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Updated with a couple more clauses.....

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I agree with this proposed amendment and would work to have it ratified. What concerns me is that the current crop of politicians and many judges do not follow and uphold our existing Constitution. Witness the ongoing attacks on the First, Second, Sixth and Tenth Amendments. If they dont follow and uphold the current version of our Constitution, why should we believe they would uphold the proposed 28th Amendment?

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Whenever law ends, tyranny begins -- John Locke, English Philosopher

The United States is a banana republic

I understand your view TG and agree it isnt a RIGHT. But how can most mature adults PROOVE who their biological birth parents are?
FJBs parents are dead, not sure about cameltoes, Nancy has dead parents, probably the same for the next 10 in line for the presidency. Probably most in Congress, Senate, state governors etc have at least one dead parent.
Probably the same for possible runners in 2024.
My parents were cremated, so how would I PROOVE that they were my parents?
Even if both parents are alive they might object to genetic testing (Big Brother, data sent to China, my body my choice, medical privacy. etc).
And how would my kids or my brothers kids PROOVE who their father is as Im an identical twin?
Point is there has to be a practical way to permit those who should be eligible to run for office to qualify and rule out the rest.
Im not even sure rules like born on US soil work as babies are born in aircraft, ships, overseas military bases, embassies etc and there are plenty of cases where legal fictions are made (read the other day that in WW2 a Canadian hospital was temporarily made not a part of Canada so a Dutch royal giving birth would have a child not born in a foreign country becoming ineligible for succession, did that make the other babies born there stateless, Dutch or Canadian?

Official records are what they are @Neal.

The enemy of the good is trying to find the 0.1% exceptions. You do that a lot around here. Why?

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Oh I know Im a bit picky devils advocate arsehole. Its the 0.1% exception that proves the rule (or busts it).
Im on your side and support 2nd A, free speech, equal enforcement of the law, level playing field, states rights, small government etc.
But if someone in your team can find chinks in the argument think what someone on the opposite team would do with that chink.
Maybe I bring something different to the table. (and sometimes I might bring shit) because Im a foreigner with an outside perspective (though I have a US born nephew and my great great great grandparents lived and died in the US so I probably have hundreds of distant US relatives).

@Neal -

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Oh I know Im a bit picky devils advocate arsehole. Its the 0.1% exception that proves the rule (or busts it).

Bullshit. That's not only crap in politics, its crap everywhere.

Solving the last 0.1% of a problem puts SEVERAL zeros on the cost and complexity, and usually fails anyway. It's absolutely insane to model any realistic goal you actually intend to achieve on that basis.

Now if your goal is simply to mentally masturbate, fine.

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I understand that the 0.1% crap is a pain in the arse. But that same 0.1% is what the other side uses.
Few examples, all toilets, schools, change rooms etc to accomodate the 0.1% trandeviants. Push for easy abortion based on rape victims (when actual rape victims are a tiny fraction of a percent getting abortions). And then they want to ban scary black rifles because 0.001% of them might be used in shootings.
Plus do official records mean anything after Obummers birth certificate?

So you accommodate crazy at the cost of solving the problem?

Nope. You discard the crazy.

As for Obama's records fraud is fraud. Always has been, always will be. Who hasn't seen plenty of fake Driver licenses, particularly in college towns?

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Found the clever person...

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The learning curve for being dead is steep, but everyone gets it down pat on the first go usually.--Thystra, March 28, 2023

TG wrote

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Who hasn't seen plenty of fake Driver licenses, particularly in college towns?

Back when I was in college, my parents bought me a Trash 80 and a printer. The university I went to had simple typed and laminated student IDs. All the bars in the college town accepted them. My roommate and I discovered how easy it was to duplicate the font and size, created our own labels, bought a cheap lamination machine and we had a bidness.

Lets just say the side hustle gave me my spending cash.

It took the university a couple of years to change their IDs.

TG, we agree. It is the other side that will Alinsky, obfusicate, lie, distort and use crazy blocking tactic to prevent any useful reform. That is why it is useful for your team to pick apart any sensible proposal to find weak points and fix them before they get to make some inconsequential or ambiguous point into an attack point and divert your efforts to a side track.
Having a security licence Ive seen some very good fake IDs, some fakes are so good that the only way you know they are fake is because they tell you. Why Obummer went and got a third rate fake is just weird.

That's not very hard to figure out; that sort of game has rather extreme risks and people with actual talent aren't so stupid as to think that they can evade them, or that whatever they're doing (in a situation like this) is worth said risk.

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@Flap do you honestly believe anyone in DC gives a rip about putting their name on a bill or section of a bill? They know no one is going to read it or even care. Look at the crap they pass with their names on it already and yet almost none of them are ever voted out of office.

TG, you have talent and a brain, same with most forum members and will spot the bull. But the general MSM lapping public? They will believe FJB when he said they need to make abortion a federal right because some 10 year old had to cross state lines (the girl that FJB referenced was a fake news story).
Nobody goes to gaol for lying about Hunter laptop, Jan 6, Russian collusion or the jab. Lies work, Alinsky works, obfuscation works and we all suffer.
BTW you did an excellent example of diversion and deflection on me. I said 25% have non birth father on certificate and most mature adults cant prove who their parents are and you skilfully diverted this by raising the cost and impractability of dealing with the 0.1% exception and I went down the path you created. Kudos to you