You Can't Do Autonomous Vehicles Without 5g...
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2018-05-15 11:21 by Karl Denninger
in Editorial , 147 references Ignore this thread
You Can't Do Autonomous Vehicles Without 5g...
[Comments enabled]

That was the claim put forward on CNBS this morning -- and it's outrageous.

It's also dead-flat stupid literally beyond words.

Folks, local jamming of signals is trivial.  It's very hard to jam them over wide distances, but very easy to do so over short ones.  A device that is actually reliant on a permanent, always-on high-speed, low-latency connection over the air is an unsafe device.

Period.

This sort of stupidity is going to get people killed, and lots of them.  Leaving aside the capacity issues that always come up from time to time, and DDOS attacks and similar that always come up from time to time, and failures of hardware (and software) that always come up from time to time the very premise that we should allow any firm to build devices that impact public safety and rely on such always-on, always-low-latency, always-available networks is so stupid that anyone buying into that, supporting it or building such a business model should be roasted medium-well and eaten.

In fact the very premise and promotion of such a thing is solicitation of and fomenting manslaughter on a mass scale.

Leave aside the surveillance outrage that comes from a network of cameras that can tell your car that you're about to walk out into a crosswalk but aren't in your car, they're on the telephone pole next to the crosswalk, and the obvious and rampant abuse that will be implemented immediately.  That's bad enough.

This is the difference in building technology that operates autonomously but takes input and allows monitoring from elsewhere (such as my HomeDaemon-MCP code) and that which relies on and will not function without a connection to that "elsewhere" and compute resources present in that "elsewhere."

The former is reasonable.

The latter is a combination of suicide (for those who embrace it) and homicide (for those who wind up victimized by it.)

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User Info You Can't Do Autonomous Vehicles Without 5g... in forum [Market-Ticker]
Daneskold
Posts: 2
Incept: 2011-04-01

Salt Lake City
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5g range is now at 2,000 feet.
Assume autonomous vehicle dependent on 5g moving at 80 mph which is 117 feet per second.

Provider would have to install a tower every...3,900 feet or so to allow overlapping range.

Right...that drive through Texas...providers will install 5g hardware every 3/4 mile?

That sounds cost effective....
Oliver1655
Posts: 107
Incept: 2012-08-02

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And this just in from the "too stupid to believe it's even true" file.

https://www.nextgov.com/emerging-tech/20....

These are supposedly from "the best and brightest minds" of our times ? What a bunch of [bull****]

It's either intentional malfeasance,collusion,stupidity or an outright giving away of our national secrets and security.

Can't anybody keep their damn mouth shut about anything anymore without blabbing, posting braggadociously on the web, or relying on some vague assurances that the cloud is secure.

(Sounds just like "subprime is contained" doesn't it)

The Republic is dying and just about everyone is too distracted to see or even care ! I no longer recognize the world I grew up in.

The Market Ticker posts and commentary are the only places left where sentient people understand what is really happening and being done to them.
Redjack
Posts: 54
Incept: 2018-01-29

Iowa
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I work with automation daily.

It works. In controlled environments. With cleans sensors. Most of the time.

But we work very hard to limit the amount of "random stuff" that enters into the cell. Even with all the sensors, the dang bots will find a way to crash.

I know people who went to work at Tesla. Let's just say they are good, but not that good to make an automatic system for dealing with high intensity driving.
Vernonb
Posts: 2091
Incept: 2009-06-03

East of Sheol
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The way this is going they'll try and steal bandwidth from ham operator's again.

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"Mass intelligence does not mean intelligent masses."
Click
Posts: 184
Incept: 2017-06-26

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"Unsafe at any speed", by Ralph Nader . Remember that one? Only this time around it might actually be true; at least until which time the right technical advances arrive.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Pentagon is looking to store the most top secret info on a new and improved cloud: https://www.nextgov.com/emerging-tech/20....

Everywhere I turn there is complexity being stacked on top of complexity. Is it just me? Or is all of this massive amount of technology going to one day become its own worst enemy? Really, the highly complex system(s) of things don't inspire confidence in me at all... In fact, when I factor in human error, known unknowns, unknown unknowns, ad hoc fixes and other risk factors including sabotage, terror attack, EMP et al., what I find myself trapped on is a neo-"Forbidden Planet".

Yes, all of this "high-tech" and endless complexity is starting to remind me of the ostensibly invincible "Death Star" or the Krell laboratory from that 1956 sci fi masterpiece, "Forbidden Planet". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD_Ns-Gc....
Acebarefoot
Posts: 167
Incept: 2009-05-20

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Quote:
The Republic is dying and just about everyone is too distracted to see or even care ! I no longer recognize the world I grew up in.

The Market Ticker posts and commentary are the only places left where sentient people understand what is really happening and being done to them.



I completely agree. I am also struck with how the vast majority of people are truly SHEEP! No thought whatsoever on their own, next to no commonsense, and the inability or unwillingness to step back and look at things from a couple angles to see what they are missing.

I have almost gotten cynical. Whenever I hear something, I automaticly look at the other angle(even if I disagree with it) to see where that is coming from and why it is being said. My wife and kids will come to me at times and ask for my take on something. They know that looking from several angles usually ends up exposing what is really going on.
Captainkidd
Posts: 1155
Incept: 2010-05-25

Houston, Texas
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Quote:
The Republic is dying and just about everyone is too distracted to see or even care ! I no longer recognize the world I grew up in.

The Market Ticker posts and commentary are the only places left where sentient people understand what is really happening and being done to them.


When friends/family start bitching to me about their particular complaint with .Gov, I've taken to asking them if they'd be ok with losing... Social Security, Medicare, Public Schools, Welfare, Unemployment....etc, etc, etc...
There's not 1 in 10 that don't balk at losing their particular sacred cow...
I'm culling my tribe quite rapidly.

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A lawyer with a briefcase can steal more than a thousand men with guns. --Mario Puzo

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. -- Henry Ford
Bagbalm
Posts: 5438
Incept: 2009-03-19

Just North of Detroit
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On what Redjack was saying... People have a childish faith in tech.
I worked with a CNC mill and one day I set up a job and part way through the first part it selected the wrong tool, busted it off by applying it without turning the spindle on, and froze with the claw in the air mid-cycle. I powered it down with the big red mushroom button, went and got the owner and told him it went out of sequence and seemed busted.
He was immediately angry and told me not to be stupid - it's a machine - it only does what you tell it. This although he had to approve any program before you could run it. He started yanking claw and it wouldn't move so he started yanking the drive chain around that moved the tools up to be grabbed and satisfied that wasn't loose he reached up to power it back up leaning in peering at the tool holders closely. I was objecting but he never paid any attention to anybody else and powered it back up.
The claw came back out and smacked him in the head knocking him flat on his back, not really out, but not tracking very well either. The spindle was back on and the claw tried to remove the tool holder from the spindle that was turning about 2,000 rpm. That was spectacular. Think sparks.
I can't even start to imagine all the stupid things people will do with automated cars.
I just know they will decide if a thug with a gun steps in front of my car it will stop even though I'd run him right over.
Nevertoolate
Posts: 1549
Incept: 2007-08-26
A True American Patriot!
San Antonio de Bexar de runover with illegals, Texas
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Bag-
You have got to finish the story. What did the dumbass say when he got up?

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Democracy is a conversation between 2 wolves & a sheep discussing what's for dinner. A Constitutional Republic is found when the sheep pulls out a gun & makes clear that his 2nd Amendment Right will be exercised should the wolves attempt to hold such a "vote."-KD 9-29-15
Alosix
Posts: 1048
Incept: 2009-03-31

Behind enemy lines..
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Quote:

It works. In controlled environments. With cleans sensors. Most of the time.


Yup.. and I get the feeling that manual drivers are going to start getting forced off of roads to allow for this. Starting with autonomous express lanes on highways.

I'm torn on this tech.. I love driving, especially with no nannies on a car. I'd also like to be able to point the tow vehicle at the race destination and take a nap.

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"Software Development is one of those jobs, like picking lettuce, or cleaning toilets, that Americans just refuse to do." : STCM
Bagbalm
Posts: 5438
Incept: 2009-03-19

Just North of Detroit
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Bag-
You have got to finish the story. What did the dumbass say when he got up?

He reverted to his native German still on the floor, which I don't speak. But I'm pretty sure it wasn't anything nice. He went in the office, refused several suggestions he to go to the ER to get his head looked at. He had a tremendous ugly big goose egg.
The next morning it was like - here's a job for you to do over on the manual machine, and what he did with HIS MACHINE was not really any of my business. Thinking on it, I can't remember him ever admitting a mistake the whole 6 months I worked there. Yes, I lasted that long before he fired me.
He hired me because he was about to lose a big contract with GM to repair their broaches. It killed him not to be able to hire some kid cheap to do that sort of work. But nobody he had could repair them in spec. They were pretty fussy - they held 32 inserts in half circle rows of 4 and 3. The pocket depth and steps of each insert pocket were -.0004" +0 to an end point, although radial location was looser. Welding them up and milling them back to that tolerance was tough. He fired me for calling bull**** on the company not making any money when they were buying a new CNC every quarter, and then a couple others for bringing games to play on the night shift, and a couple for using the bathroom too often or too long including his only decent grinder hand. Then the shop folded and he had a mental breakdown and spent a few months in a psych ward. One day like a year later he saw me in the drug store and informed me he'd found Jesus. But he was nuts before he got smacked in the head.

Redjack
Posts: 54
Incept: 2018-01-29

Iowa
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Bag,

Sounds like some of "my" Germans.

Entering into a cell with a bot on is a big NOPE. The machine could have killed him.

Tickerguy
Posts: 152887
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Yep -- he's lucky he's alive.

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Winding it down.
Kgmqt
Posts: 135
Incept: 2013-08-19

Minnesota
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Remember when Amazon had a failure and everybody's cloud connected **** stopped working - the guy that couldn't shut his oven off, the guy that couldn't open the gate to his house, the guy that couldn't adjust his mouse sensitivity?

Yeah, connect my car to that **** and hurdle me down the highway at 75 MPH.
Supertruckertom
Posts: 1955
Incept: 2010-11-07

USA
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Don't worry about the cars.
It will be the robot land trains of trucks nose to tail like circus elephants that provide the spectacular news video highlights.

The Amazon / Tesla fleet will be the early adopters.

Job Security for me over here at a debt free privately held family owned company.

The Human touch and personalized customer service will be our selling points.

Ya think that the driver shortage is bad now?
Wait until the public demands all Autonomous Trucks be manned or removed from the highways.

Even if they try to remotely drive them, 300 ms lag would be deadly in moving traffic.

No respawns in real life.




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Preparing to go Hunting.
Emg
Posts: 203
Incept: 2012-11-20

Canada
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"It will be the robot land trains of trucks nose to tail like circus elephants that provide the spectacular news video highlights."

Not gonna last long once people realize that a dozen trucks driving nose-to-tail will make joining the highway impossible.

As for 5G, Goolag need some way to deliver ads to you as your Goolagmobile drives you to work while monitoring everything you do on the way to feed into their targeted ads AI.
Nw_dude
Posts: 20
Incept: 2017-11-05

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Home Daemon just needs the keywords "5g" and "blockchain" in the prospectus and the $$$ will flow in like honey, HAHAHAH!
Thelazer
Posts: 147
Incept: 2009-05-11

Davenport, Fl
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I can't even drive half of Orlando without a dropped call.... and hell if the "free wifi" that's been put out by bright house even works in 30% of the places I visit. These people are stupid.
Supertruckertom
Posts: 1955
Incept: 2010-11-07

USA
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EMG, I sure hope you are Right.

Google Truck Platooning.

There is a company out there trying to get it going so that they can be the matchmaker and get a cut of the supposed fuel savings from the technique which is basically computer controlled drafting like in NASCAR.

When the car companies start calling for mandatory speed governors on human driven vehicles, including mandatory reflashing of the older car computers, it is going to get interesting.

Talk about noncompliance with gun laws, that will have massive noncompliance as well.




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Preparing to go Hunting.
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