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2018-05-12 07:00 by Karl Denninger
in Corruption , 586 references Ignore this thread
How Tesla PROBABLY Gamed Crash Tests
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Vehicles are supposed to be crash-tested before they are put on sale.

Part of crash-testing is assessing fire risk.  For gasoline and diesel vehicles this is easy; you fill the tank with something that doesn't burn, but is apparent if it leaks.  Crash the vehicle, if you have leaking "fuel" all over the place, well, you failed.

So what do you do with an electric vehicle?  Well, the manufacturer probably crashes the vehicle with little or no charge in the battery because you certainly don't want to destroy the testing facility with an impossible-to-extinguish fire!

How do you know the battery didn't internally short?  It doesn't leak all over the floor like a gas tank when it does!

So here's what Tesla probably did -- they probably indeed crashed cars with no charge and thus claimed their "excellent" results.

Here's what the NHTSA should have done, and almost-certainly did not do:

Take the vehicle post-crash out of there, expose the charging connection for it and then, in a nice safe place, fully charge it and let it sit for a month to be certain that (1) it is intact and did not short and (2) presents no unsafe conditions as a result of the crash.

If it catches on fire or is shorted -- it cannot accept a charge -- then the vehicle fails, as it would have caught fire in a real accident.

Betcha the NHTSA did not do this, and I also betcha that Tesla knew damn well they wouldn't.

In other words, just like everything else Musk has done, he gamed the test.

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User Info How Tesla PROBABLY Gamed Crash Tests in forum [Market-Ticker]
Attilahooper
Posts: 2833
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I'm surprised an engineer at NHTSA didn't catch this, or maybe the previous administration's appointees fast tracked it.

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Tickerguy
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They didn't give a ****. There is not a snowballs chance in Hell the pack keeps its integrity in any serious wreck.

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Winding it down.

Rollformer
Posts: 299
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Does this mean I should buy a Tesla? I made out pretty well with a diesel Volkswagen.
Dudefish
Posts: 151
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It's cool because Tesla is working on a new battery design that will encase the battery in 4" of solid steel all the way around and will only weigh 10 pounds. Coming in 2020 model year. For realz.
Whitehat
Posts: 438
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The People's Republic of New York
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a very elegant test. questions, could the design of the pack game the system by isolating shorted cells and permitting use of the undamaged or automatically break the connection to the charging port. related to the second, could Tesla claim that a vehicle is not expected to work after a successful collision test.

what is missing is an industry standard for battery safety testing for transportation applications. funny how this was omitted.

i have many contacts in municipal fire fighting. they are very concerned and the lack of codified rescue and firefighting procedures is a very unspoken but quite well discussed issue. they have dealt with exotic metals when they burn such as magnesium casings, but these are rare and can be mitigated on scene. it is amazing, but ICE cars have spectacular crashes and fire is very seldom a confounding variable; the designs are that good. what i can tell you is that many of the extraction procedures that prevent injuries from being made worse by occupant extraction will be abbreviated if there is any chance of a battery fire. i rescued a neighbor from one of these fires involving a computer and the heat from such a small source was astounding. you do not dare water it. you can only remove it from the area at risk and smother it with a very large amount of inert preferably neutralizing material, in my case after throwing it out a window with a shovel. what are you going to do when the occupant is essentially sitting next to or on the battery?

some enterprising person needs to obtain a few old unserviceable Teslas that can still be charged and in a remote area conduct some tests. might give me something to do when i have a little free time.

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Spanktron9
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KD wrote-
Quote:
They didn't give a ****. There is not a snowballs chance in Hell the pack keeps its integrity in any serious wreck.


We agree. The question becomes how much liability/culpability lies with TSLA and how much with NHTSA? If TSLA "followed the rules" (but not the spirit) of the testing are they culpable for putting out free cremation with every major accident? (I think so). How about NHTSA for failing to adequately test for fire/explosion risk on "cutting edge" Li-Ion battery technology?

Also, if anyone knows any current or future TSLA owners, I would point them towards "Rich Rebuilds" Youtube channel. The man has bought and rebuilt several salvage title Teslas, apparently TSLA does some straight up ******* stuff to owners of what they call "unsupported vehicles". Including stranding families by remotely disabling supercharging and other moves. All that "networked" control of the car? Yeah, TSLA can pull the plug ANYTIME and have done so WITHOUT warning the owner. I smell some pretty upset Model 3 owners in the future. They are not millionaire playboys that just jump in their next rig and write off the loss. Oh, and since you MUST have the car serviced at Tesla, the hourly rate is $180! Enjoy that.


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Whitehat
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perhaps Tesla's fetish for disabling their supercharging outside of the controlled sales and operation conditions is that they know this usage would be a severe test of any compromised battery. they want to look over these cars regularly to ensure that the battery pack is perfect probably to prevent "incidents."

funny how i can walk up to a dealer parts counter for my 10 and even 18 year old Hondas and even older models and purchase brand new components for reasonable prices. this is how one builds customer loyalty and creates a secondary resale and enthusiast market.

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There are two ways to be rich: One is by acquiring much, and the other is by desiring little.
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"Be not deceived; God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap" (Gal. 6:7)
Oldpool
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I was in Home Desperate the other day and some geeks from Tesla were hawking power walls, I told them Tesla was bankrupt and that the stock was going to zero. Apparently they hadn't done the math!

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Mtdm
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For those of you who know how their service centers work - What does Tesla consider/claim the service life of the battery to be? How much do they charge for a replacement?
Tickerguy
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The replacements are $30k, more or less.

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Vernonb
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Spanktron9 said:

Quote:
The question becomes how much liability/culpability lies with TSLA and how much with NHTSA? If TSLA "followed the rules" (but not the spirit) of the testing are they culpable for putting out free cremation with every major accident? (I think so). How about NHTSA for failing to adequately test for fire/explosion risk on "cutting edge" Li-Ion battery technology?

Let's look at this from a general liability and criminal negligence/recklessness point of view. It doesn't matter what the particular component was. If the tests were gamed to hide the issue then a known deadly safety issue was purposefully hidden to commit fraud and to sale the product. This caused the death/injury of people.

Musk deserves to have his testicles hooked to one of these fully charged battery packs. I consider this manslaughter as the least of charges.


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Dudefish
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Unless there is a written regulation clearly requiring that the crash test be conducted with a fully charged battery, you are absolutely certainly correct. And the informal guidance documents that I have seen clearly recognize the risk of battery fires, but don't actually do anything to protect the public from that Danger. In fact, I would not be surprised if the nhtsa allowed Tesla to do its crash testing with an inert structure simulating the strength of the battery bolted to the underside of the car.
Vernonb
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Meanwhile in other news....
smiley

Tesla's engineering chief, Doug Filed, takes leave of absence at pivotal moment.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/teslas-engi....



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Cobra2411
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Philly P.a.
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Nobody wants to be the unpopular one when it comes to EV's. They're going to save us from globull warming, so what's a few deaths from fire when you're saving the world?

Could Tesla have made a ringer pack? Mostly inert with a small, well protected core for minimal power? It's not like anyone would expect them for show up with a full pack. Car powers up, safeties kick in and the test goes beautifully...

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Marc2mrkt
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Just think about all the electric vehicles in China...some cities are even going all in on electric buses. You just know their safety testing is non-existent and much of the tech IP was stolen from Tesla and others. Maybe the tell on this industry in China is to see how Warren Buffet's company (BYD) holds up. http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?sy....

Anecdotal: I was in Hong Kong the other day and noticed dozens of Teslas driving around.
Crossthread
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Wilmington, NC
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Shared & twatted karl..

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Emg
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"I was in Hong Kong the other day and noticed dozens of Teslas driving around."

If I remember correctly, Tesla sales there have dropped to pretty much zero in the last year or two since the government eliminated subsidies.

From what I remember, luxury cars were taxed at something like 50% there, but luxury electric cars weren't. So Tesla effectively got about a 33% subsidy, and that's now disappeared.
Don24mac
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Well, at least in some cases, during a crash a Firetruck will be very close by. What is it with Teslas not being able to see Firetrucks stopped in front of them? It was going 60mph when it hit the truck stopped at a light.

http://kutv.com/news/local/police-invest....

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Tickerguy
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Nice....

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Winding it down.
Ckaminski
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Quote:
electric buses.


Electric buses are fine if delivered via overhead cable.

Attempting to have a TSLA style bus? I can't imagine...
Spanktron9
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I'm going to say autopilot and she was on Instagram or Twitter paying no attention.

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"Winter is coming." -Motto of House Stark
"Don't coast through life. Grab it by the hair and **** it half to death." - Jotapay
"Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general" - Mark Rippetoe
"Its like Calvinball."-MarvinMartian
Vernonb
Posts: 2091
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East of Sheol
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And another Tesla exec leaves - this one was over field performance engineering.

https://www.thestreet.com/technology/imp....


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"Mass intelligence does not mean intelligent masses."
Spanktron9
Posts: 4365
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Reality.
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TSLA execs are trying to reach minimum safe distance. smiley

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"Winter is coming." -Motto of House Stark
"Don't coast through life. Grab it by the hair and **** it half to death." - Jotapay
"Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general" - Mark Rippetoe
"Its like Calvinball."-MarvinMartian
Gianmarko
Posts: 56
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Bern, Switzerland
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this happened not far from here

https://www.tio.ch/ticino/cronaca/125889....

in italian but the picture is pretty clear.

having dealt with lithium cells (only for fun and sake of experimenting) i know that i dont want to sit on 700kg of them, ever.
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