I know a significant number of LEGAL Mexican immigrants.

I've yet to meet ONE that favors illegal immigration or any form of amnesty. Every one of those people stood in line and went through all the BS necessary to become either a green-card holder or a citizen, and they DEEPLY resent those who jump the line.

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re: illegal immigration being a wedge issue

It is also not a wedge issue in the context of this discussion, as numerous studies indicate it is a significant cause of state/local budget woes and are an economic drain on taxpayers who have to support services to these illegals far greater than what they contribute to the economy as a whole.

To be fair, there are also other studies that dispute this conclusion, but, to the best of my knowledge, they all come from pro-illegal sources.

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So true, Gen. I know 2 personally who were born in mexico, one became a citizen and the other has a green card. You would never know the green card holder is not a citizen. He speaks better english than most americans I know. I had no idea he wasn't american until he told me. They are both successful business owners and neither are happy about illegal immigration.

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I know not what others may choose but, as for me, give me liberty or give me death. - Patrick Henry

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/us_nationa....

If it were possible to locate most illegal immigrants currently in the United States, would you favor deporting as many as possible or would you favor setting up a system for them to become legal residents?
45% Deport, 49% Set up system

45/49 -- looks like a wedge issue to me.

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Umbrage is like love. No matter how much someone takes, there's always more for you to give.

Ram,

The candidate that makes a strong stand on "border security first" to stop the inflow wins.

It's that simple.

Ask the following question in your poll:

Do you favor or oppose setting up a strong border presence to prevent illegal immigrants from entering this country and imprisoning all employers who hire them?

Betcha that polls 90/10.

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"Illegal immigration" consists of multiple issues. Increased border security has a much stronger consensus than any proposal for how to deal with the people that are already here.

Quote:

"Illegal immigration" consists of multiple issues. Increased border security has a much stronger consensus than any proposal for how to deal with the people that are already here.

Agreed and thats why when a candidate uses the term "comprehensive immigration policy" most everyone smells a rat.

Secure the border first and THEN we can have a real debate.

when I said immigration, I meant immigration.

Stepping up border security is a majority issue. Heck, I even support that. Assuming, by that, we mean using more of our assets to patrol our own border to keep out terrorists, heavy artillery, etc. rather, than, say, Afghanistan's.

Immigration, however, is not...

As mentioned previously, deportation loses v. create a legal way to stay 49-45, and revoking birthright citizen is split within the margin of error (49-47 with 49 opposing the change.)

The Tea Party I went to had signs about building a wall with Mexico and making English the sole official language of the country. These are definitely wedge issues. (Building a wall with Mexico polled at 49 in favor, 50 against.) http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration....

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Umbrage is like love. No matter how much someone takes, there's always more for you to give.

I agree with both you and Karl that border security is a winning issue. If Republicans presented it that way, they would do well. Cut the wedge issues out of the picture and only keep the violence/terrorists out and you will get LOTS of voters. I urge the Republicans and/or tea party folks to make this adjustment to the position.

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Umbrage is like love. No matter how much someone takes, there's always more for you to give.

Ram, the Republicans will NOT do this, as the "business interests" want the illegal labor.

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Quote:

Ram, the Republicans will NOT do this, as the "business interests" want the illegal labor.

If they don't there is truly no hope.

This is why, incidentally, I consider the attempt to "take over" the Republican Party a lost cause. You have to get rid of the moneymen, and the only way I can see that happening is for very illegal things to take place - they will not leave, and they can prevent their exile since they hold the purse.

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Quote:

making English the sole official language of the country

I agree, THAT is definitely a wedge issue. Honestly, it's barely 'even' an issue. More like a meaningless and incendiary public gesture. Pandering at its most pathetic and pointless.

The fact is, there will ALWAYS be folks dead set against immigration in all forms. Xenophobia is real and deep rooted on some. However, the vast majority of Americans DO understand why LEGITIMATE immigration is part of our national character and why it makes us more competitive.

We've just screwed the pooch by waiting so long to do anything about it. I think one of the main reasons that BOTH SIDES have been paralyzed on the issue so long, is because of the sheer amount of wage-arbitrage opportunities the illegals have presented. Deporting them, offering amnesty or citizenship (along with the associated protections, labor laws and min. wage) or enforcing/arresting those who hire them are all EXTREMELY TOXIC to their corporate fundraising prospects.

::facepalm:: Pardon me. I did not understand that some people are equating learning about Islam, as part of world history, with teaching them to worship Allah.

Kids also learn about Judaism, Christianity and some other religions while studying world history. Yes, there are often activities in world history (and other) classes. Acting out an event. Dressing in a costume. BFD.

My last word on the topic.

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The man who wouldn't die.

Republicans want a small government. Small enough to fit in the bedroom. - C. Crumling

Also my last word on the topic:

If there is not sufficient support for amending the Constitution to enshrine your pet cause as a duty of the feds (oppressing teh gays, outlawing abortion, protecting the spotted owl), that is prima facie evidence that your issue does not deserve to be part of the talking points in a federal election and should be left to the states.

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"Every time we on TF talk about God and gays, God frees a banker and gives him a bonus." --me
"Your farts are interstate commerce and if they want to stick a muffler up your ass they will do it." --B

Karl wrote..

Actually, illegal immigration is NOT a wedge issue. 90% of those who have the right to vote oppose it.

If government was restrained to its 'proper' scope, then the if people were willing to bring themselves, their capital and their labour to the country to participate in a free market economy, then the concept of illegal immigration becomes moot.

Welfare is really the only point, and I think it's legitimate to ask the question, if its not OK to provide welfare to immigrants, why is it OK to provide welfare to legal residents, particularly those for the most part entrenched in and dependent on welfare, and aren't or haven't been taxpayers at any stage in their existence?

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Why do you complain? It's the criminals who decide how proceeds of crime are spent, not the victims.

illegal Immigration exacerbates Unemployment creating the necessity for Welfare.

Welfare is easier to constrict if there are jobs to direct the recipients towards.

Constrict Illegal Immigration and Welfare is more naturally restricted.

The two issues are intertwined.

This is why the Republicans and the Democrats both do nothing.

Republicans desire the cheap labor to manage -for a profit; and Democrats desire the burgeoning welfare class to manage -for a profit.

Both want to skim off of the dual problems that Illegal Immigration exacerbates: One off the cheap Productivity, and the Other off of the lack of it.

Neither really wants the issue solved; They both like the situation just as it is because it suits both Their purposes from a Political and Managerial/Skimming standpoint.

Ultimately, if the Illegals are restricted and repatriated to their home countries: it will empower American Citizens, constrict the Welfare State; and remove power from both the Democrats and Republicans.

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides During times of universal deceit, telli

After reading these many pages, the TP'ers sound like a disorganized group of rabble rousers. I just read a lot of complaining over social issues without a unified platform from which all stand behind.

Each region in this nation has its own version of Tea Party folk which pushes its own particular agenda that differs from another region's Tea Party folk.

Is this the GREAT CHANGE that is going to revolutionize America???

Thanks RAM, I would love to see a change towards order and discipline- socially, fiscally, monetarily, etc.

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What do I know, I'm only an ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT.

Your point is right on Jose.

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Umbrage is like love. No matter how much someone takes, there's always more for you to give.

Quote:

Each region in this nation has its own version of Tea Party folk which pushes its own particular agenda that differs from another region's Tea Party folk.

Is this the GREAT CHANGE that is going to revolutionize America???

Yes! The one thing we all have in common is that we're sick to death of Washington DC stealing all it does from us and telling us what to do as if it knows better than we do how we should live our lives. It is a single unifying principle that allows for people who generally hold wide differences of opinion to share a common, mutually beneficial goal.

More concretely, the various flavors of bailouts (straight, "stimulus", earmarked spending, etc.) are a particular rallying point. Globalism in general I would also say is unwelcome, given that the promised benefits never materialized while all the drawbacks were realized. I could list quite a number of policy positions that I could reasonably expect would be well received by the TP crowd that are all driven by the principle above - pretty much all of which would be opposition to coercive centralized "solutions" driven by the priorities of the oligarchy.

The federal government not only does not meet its obligations, it explicitly refuses to do them - and has even gone as far to sue local governments which attempt to do those things in the absence of Constitutionally required federal action. And yet, at the same time, it claims the privilege of issuing all sorts of orders on every topic under the sun, penalizing us in myriad ways should we fail to completely comply with the ever-mounting pile of orders from the King federal requirements.

In the Declaration of Independence this was specifically cited: "He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance." This is what unites the Tea Party - we all want our freedom and independence from unjust and tyrannical foreign rule. For foreign indeed is today's Washington DC from the idea of a government that derives its just powers from the consent of the people.

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I just kicked in a small donation to Christine O'Donnell and sent her a link to this post.

I couldn't find an e-mail contact on her website, so I had to register and post this in the Discussions forum on the site. Here's the link to my post: http://www.teamchristine2010.com/forum/t....

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