Truthseeker wrote..

And where, pray tell, do you suppose the agenda that seems to frighten you lead, after that?

I'm guessing too many gay couples antiquing in Vermont appointing their homes with too much flamboyant window treatments and too much chrome and black leather furniture while obsessing over cleanliness far more than I could be bothered. Then splitting up said objects in divorce court while maligning each other as less than clean enough to their social circles behind each others' backs. Yes it WILL be the ruin of us all not to mention the Ruin Of Marriage Itself.

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It's about the economy.

Most certainly.

I, and a great many Others; cannot fathom why Fiscal Conservatives would doom Their movement by taking a Cultural stance which alienates any voting block.

I know many Fiscally Conservative Homosexuals Who would rejoice at inclusion in the Republican Party; -if only the Social platform would embrace protection of Their Civil Liberties.

These People are simply not foolish enough to throw the perceived Defenders of Their Civil Liberties aside in pursuit of a Fiscal Agenda.

If the Republican Party were to stringently equate Civil Protection of Religious and Social Choice as a Party platform of stringent Constitutional 'Conservatism', the Democrats would be divested of the Gay/'Socially Liberal' Voting Block: and that is probably enough to tip the scales...

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides During times of universal deceit, telli

I still want to know how not responding to negative ads is a winning strategy. Read ANY history on 1964, 1988, and 2004.

I still want to know how many elections (and there are some) were lost because cultural conservatives overplayed their hand.

I still want to know how many elections were won by GOP candidates where cultural conservatives didn't make up the margin of victory.

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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-They wanted camps; I want ropes.

Once again your polarized view of the world backs you into a corner, El. There is a VERY WIDE SWATH of folks you assume to be on the "left" who embrace the

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anti-fraud, anti-bailout

sentiments that generated the Tea Party movement. A very large number will get behind those who concentrate on eliminating the greedy axis between D.C. and Wall Street.

Your insistence on divisiveness merely extends the lock said axis currently enjoys, no matter the party make-up of D.C.

Until you can see through the phony left/right charade, you'll see little of consequence.

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'...But people better realize that the worst-case scenario could actually happen.9/11 happened. This can happen. An economic 9/11, the likes of which we've never seen.' Gerald Celente

Last thing I can say in here...it's obvious where everyone stands and THAT isn't gonna change in this thread!

Throxx,
I just wanna chime in that I agree with you 100%.

Genesis wrote..

Seriously, the solution to that is to get the fucking state out of it. Why do so-called Christians demand that the state insert itself into a religious sacrament?

+100%

Eleua,
It IS an emotional issue. But, look past your personal feelings and come to the realization that it's "not right" to co-opt the force of the state to serve YOUR PURPOSES, no matter how "correct" you know them to be. That's how the REAL and HORRIFIC evil powers come to rise in this world...Through power granted to the "well meaning".

Widgeon, I'm thinking that perhaps the problem for you is not so much that there are Really Obnoxious Gay Parades from time to time.

Maybe the problem you have is with the existence of gay people in the first place.

If that's the problem, and depending on how much energy you put into thinking about it, then yeah, it'll make you unhappy no matter what.

Because gay people have been around forever and will be around forever.

I'm not gay and have a hard time understanding why somebody would care one way or another.

I can pretty much guarantee tho, that anyone whose happiness depends on not acknowleging the fact that there *are* gay people out there and that they *do* deserve equal treatment under the law is in for some unhappy years ahead.

I don't know what to say. And I'm not being facetious when I say that, if I *was* a praying Christian or Jew or Muslim who felt that way, I would pray on it . Hard.

There's got to be an answer in Scripture. Maybe the "He without sin, throw the first stone" would work, if you believe being gay is a "sin". I dunno.

I'm Sorry I've upset you.

It's about the economy.

Yep. I'm Christian. I will never again consent to the State inserting itself into my religious life. If I ever get married again it will be between myself, my partner, and God - the State can FUCK OFF.

I've made that mistake and learned from it.

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It's because the basic arguments of Rule of Law, equal justice, and fiscal conservatism constitute both a powerful shield AND sword.

As a shield, you can argue essentially, "hey, we're the good guys" without any guile or double-speak - because you REALLY WOULD BE.

And the opportunities for running negative campaigning against the enemy based on those 3 above principles are nearly endless and absolutely crushing.

AND it affords the opportunity to turn the opponents' negative ads into both sword and shield for oneself - by pointing out the way wedge issues are used to the detriment of the democratic process. It is a win-win-win situation. As a non-wedge issue non-hot-button candidate I would PRAY for my opponents to try to run that line of argument with me.

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If I ever get married again it will be between myself, my partner, and God - the State can FUCK OFF.

I've made that mistake and learned from it.

If there is a next time: I'm gonna take Her into the backyard and Jump Over The Broom.

I don't want the Church OR the State meddling in My personal affairs ever again.

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides During times of universal deceit, telli

Gays are changing the paradigm and I'm the one using the state to coerce my POV .

The Bible is silent on abortion, and I use entirely secular sources as the basis for calling it murder, and that is just me pushing my troglodyte religion on all of you.

I cite 2010 Gallup polls as showing a 3:1 "conservative" vs "moderate" advantage in the GOP and a 2:1 advantage of "conservative" vs "liberal" in the general population, and my math doesn't add up.

I ask where neg ads being unrefuted has ever been a winning strategy, and get silence.

I ask where cultural conservatives were not the margin of victory in the GOP, and get silence.

I ask where cultural conservatives blew an election by not STFUing (and there are some), and get silence.

I "hate" because I tolerate but do not accept.

I'm lectured that I have to get cornholed because the Bible commands it, whereas it is really the pagans that hold my liberties near and dear.

I'm told that the FFs were Diests, Essex refutes it entirely, and people still hold to that bit of history revisionism.

I'm told that Diesm is the tolerance of other religions whereas Christianity is an ideology of insanity and hatred.

Guys,

I've said all that I can say. My ignore rating jumped (as it does on every "religious" thread), so that's a win. Just remember, I agree with all of you on the fiscal issues. I understand what is happening and how the present system is going to fail, regardless of any politician's views on if the state sanctions where Steve parks his birth worm.

I still stand by my original objections that ignoring the base is bad politics if you are a GOP, but great politics if you are a Lefty. November will tell the tale.

No hard feelings. It was fun, energizing, and I'll see you on the rest of the treads waiting for GS to do a headder on the zero line.

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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-They wanted camps; I want ropes.

An old girlfriend told me the Celts would jump over the fire together and that meant they were married - for a year. At the end of the year, if they didn't renew, that was that. One year at a time. Maybe Lugh isn't such a bad god after all... I could change my creed... just make sure you get the right slice of bannock next Samhain.

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Where would the 'Social and Religious Conservatives' go if the Republican Party came out with a platform equating the Civil Rights of Gays/Social Liberals with Religious Civil Rights?

IMHO, the Tea Party and the Republicans are BOTH being very foolish trying to divide the Electorate in order to achieve Their objectives.

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides During times of universal deceit, telli

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Gays are changing the paradigm

So did Negroes and Women; Who is still pissed about any of THAT?

Maybe We can leave the Affirmative Action BS behind in due course and get with the Meritocracy/Reward Productivity and Ingenuity paradigm.

The Social Culture is evolving.

We ALL have to get over it because the Social Culture, like the Economy and Technology; isn't ever going to stop evolving.
It probably wouldn't be a good thing if it did.

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Just remember, I agree with all of you on the fiscal issues.

I agree with the absolute imperative to address the fiscal and structural issues as well, Eleua.

My Ignore Rating has jumped, too.

Well:

1. I take that as a sort of back-handed compliment.

2. I never put Anyone on ignore.

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides During times of universal deceit, telli

Gen wrote;

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Yep. I'm Christian. I will never again consent to the State inserting itself into my religious life. If I ever get married again it will be between myself, my partner, and God - the State can FUCK OFF.

I've made that mistake and learned from it.

I agree. This may come as a surprise to a lot of the Anti God people, but a lot of us truly faithful people do in fact believe that the government has no right to be involved in marriage and that being involved is only a form of tax. My church will in-fact not marry two men or two women. If your church does then so be it. It should be up to the church. If you are not religious, why get married at all? It should be meaningless to you.

However, I have already decided that the moment the government decides that they will marry two men so that they can have the same benefits, I am going to marry myself and sue the federal government. I want the same tax benefit that the government sanctioned marriage gets. Why should I get punished because I am not married?

A can of worms it will be.

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Arizona & desert gardening
http://azediblegarden.com/

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I can pretty much guarantee tho, that anyone whose happiness depends on not acknowleging the fact that there *are* gay people out there and that they *do* deserve equal treatment under the law is in for some unhappy years ahead.

Last Post Here. It's remarkable the stories folks concoct in their heads to justify their positions. In this case, it's the second instance where you've constructed an explanation for my words that make you feel better but have nothing to do w/ what I wrote; first you tried to assert authority over my inalienable right. Here, I simply said that, in the context of the examples being discussed (aggressive assertion of gay rights), that in that context my Right to Pursue Happiness was being infringed. That's what I said and somehow you've twisted it to say that it's because I hate gays. Hardly.

The reason I'm personally infringed, as you ought to have clued into by my other words, is the assault & takeover of public spaces, spaces that are mine too including movement into many schools, airwaves,etc., by an aggressive angry group that refuses to respect long established social norms. It is the loss of public spaces that primarily contributes to the infringement that I feel.

Guh. "Long established social norms". So many long established social norms are no longer accepted.

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Guh. "Long established social norms". So many long established social norms are no longer accepted.

Yeah, Like Paying Your Mortgage/Rent and Working. LOL.

I can't express my Christianity or someone else their Judaism in government schools or government courtrooms, yet the gay and Muslim agenda are sanctioned by the state in those same spaces. Doesn't sound like equal treatment, it sounds like intolerance and establishment to me. How about the right to not see my tax dollars spent on causes with which I disagree, such as sponsoring the Imam's tour thru the Middle East, or nation buildng in some shithole ?

When I see that all of the social issues are removed from the "public space", ie from the sphere of government reach, is the day that we'll all get along.

And that requires getting government out of our lives and most particularly out of our wallets. Economic and social.

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"Even a dog knows the difference between being stumbled over and being kicked." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

"Neither the wisest Constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and h

I'm sure my ignore rating is about to go up too!!

I agree with Widge and Eluea.

But that doesn't matter for this interim election.

I've had lengthy private discussions with some on this forum about what that means as a Catholic who does walk the talk.

We've seen one really good example of trying to sort out the problem that faces us fiscally. The TARP bill and the movement started by Gen and Steph called the Tea-party movement that happenned during the Presidential election that McCain lost because he's a douchebag in the pocket of WS and didn't listen to the warnings he was given. And they came directly from the founder of this forum at his own cost. Those republicans could give a shit about the conservative base, let alone fiscal conservatism. They are bought and paid for.

I voted for McCain for one reason: the Supreme Court and abortion. From my POV it's an abomination as bad as the holocaust and financially as a nation we are paying for it now. But that issue is done, for now. I can't change that.

When Gen and Pika founded the Tea-Party movement the congressional phone banks were SHUT DOWN b/c of the calls. TARP failed the first time b/c of it.

We need to focus now on that, all of us. We have no debate about who is hating who or trying to impose this or that dogma on the other unless we get the fiscal thing worked out. Period.

Local polls favor the throw them out for November so far. So we all need to focus. Left or right.

But I will say this. If the meme becomes fiscal issues are the only issues that matter and YOU the ignorant Christian who showed up on 9/12 last year and for the Beck rally this year becomes a meme El is right. The right will walk away just like they did with McCain.

These interim elections are not a test of the right, IMHO, but how the left can tolerate unity with them, if they can.

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"An unborn child's property rights are protected by law. His right to life is not." Ronald Reagan

So once we come together for this purging, we'll go right back to arguing about religious/moral issues like abortion?

Bleh, count me out.

Not voting for someone who still thinks that's even a second priority.

Mrbill: such tolerance from the left and concern about the fiscal issues.

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"An unborn child's property rights are protected by law. His right to life is not." Ronald Reagan

MrBill is the reason that;

1. The dems will not be wiped out.
2. Spending Rinos will remain.
3. Susan Sarandon will become president.

Ok, 3 was just to see if you were paying attention.

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Arizona & desert gardening
http://azediblegarden.com/

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I can't express my Christianity or someone else their Judaism in government schools...

If you're a student, you certainly can express your Christianity, Judaism, etc., as long as it doesn't disrupt the class. Children are allowed to pray in school; in fact, they're guaranteed that right. As far as I can tell, they're allowed to proselytize to their pals during their free time. It is just that prayer can't be suggested or led by the teacher, administration, school official, etc.

Please don't tell me that you believe the nonsense that prayer isn't allowed in schools. It most assuredly is. But there isn't any prayer generic enough to avoid the appearance of endorsing a religion - so teachers can't lead prayer.

I do not understand why the Establishment Clause is such a difficult concept.

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...yet the gay and Muslim agenda are sanctioned by the state in those same spaces.

Yeah, all over the country those poor Christian students are sent to the office en masse for daring to bow their heads before lunch, while every single public school student is forced to learn all about Islam. A couple goofups by a few school districts means it's happening universally, huh? Sheesh.

Some of us live in the real world. We have to interact with people who are rich, poor, white, black, yellow, red, straight, gay, liberals, conservatives, bigots. Frankly, I want my kids to go to school in the Real World and learn to tolerate others - others that they won't be able to discriminate against if they're in a position to hire them later on. I would be ashamed of myself if I'd raised bigots.

As for homosexuality, what would you have the public schools do? Teach the kids that being gay is wrong, or a sin? Go to any high school. There are gay students. They know they're gay. They didn't CHOOSE to be gay. Most of the straight kids don't care one way or the other.

I guess it would be much better, if your opinion, to go back to the days when they were bullied in school, because you think it's a choice, or wrong.

I wish some people had the intellectual honesty to admit that they want to outlaw homosexuality, like in the past. Of course, that would be political suicide, wouldn't it?

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The man who wouldn't die.

Republicans want a small government. Small enough to fit in the bedroom. - C. Crumling

You got it all wrong Flick. Nice try making your case. You should try being more condescending, it might help drive your point home better.

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Arizona & desert gardening
http://azediblegarden.com/