"Is it hatred or refusal to accept their behavior?"

It's hatred. And that is pretty obvious, actually.

Maybe you are one in a million and feel differently, but for most people, it's fear and hatred.

I've spoken to a lot of people about the issue, and I've seen all the ways they try to whitewash what is nothing more than simple bigotry.

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"Fear Disturbs your concentration" -- Sabine Schmitz

I must disagree, Ark.

I consider the preservation and protection of an Individual's Right to do whatever They wish as long as it does not infringe upon the Rights of Others a most Conservative position.

I take these words as absolute and at their face value: '...Life, Liberty; and the Pursuit of Happiness.'

Eleaua, please answer My question:

Exactly how does 'their behavior' infringe upon Your Rights?

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides During times of universal deceit, telli

Throxx- I agree with you. Not sure what you are referring to.

In this case, Eleua expressed the answer w/ perfect precision.

I personally think that the issue makes a better 'Conservative' talking point.

The problem is entirely with those Who claim to be 'Conservative' Who are in fact not.

These Who would attack the point on Religious grounds are in fact Religious Ideologues masquerading as 'Conservative'.

This is one of the problems with contemporary Political labels: the labels are not reflective of the content.

This is what Karl is attempting to address.

There exists NO political 'Right' & 'Left'.

There is in actuality -a Triangle.

Religious Ideology is in one corner.

Fascist Ideology is in one corner. ( Socialism is always effectively a form of Oligarchy/Fascism )

Secular Liberty is in one corner.

I consider the preservation and protection of an Individual's Right to do whatever They wish as long as it does not infringe upon the Rights of Others a most Conservative position: Secular Liberty/Do no harm Capitalism.

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides During times of universal deceit, telli

My only real statement on this issue is ... I don't want that lifestyle, etc. promoted to or in front of my kids. No one has "the Right" to force it into my Family Space. Probably I'll stop there.

Eleua wrote..

. . . In the US we have a cultural norm of tolerance. That's a two way street. . . If you do it in such a fashion that I can't reasonably distance myself from it, you are not holding up your end of the bargain. . . They are actively pushing their lifestyle in neutural areas of our society (public schools and civil governance) as to make those that disagree with it being forced to either accept it or actively oppose it. . .

Your statements should also apply to religious belief. This illustrates perfectly why so many have antipathy towards those who want to insert their religious beliefs into everyone else's life. Consider the following:

Tax exemptions for religious orgs/churches? That's MY (non-believer) dime.
Tax funds to religious entities (money is fungible)? My dime.
Publicly funded chaplains/religious staff in the military, Congress, etc.? My dime.
Public funds to build churches/chapels on gov't facilities/military bases? My dime.
Public funds for religious events (political prayer breakfasts, etc.)? My dime.
Religious invocations preceding/concluding public meetings/events? My dime, my time.
Religious symbols on public property? My dime, my space.
Blue laws regarding liquor sales, etc.? My inconvenience.
Religious instruction (creationism, etc.) in public schools? My dime, my kids being dumbed down.
Prayer (or "contemplation" or whatever) time allocated in public schools? My kids' available instruction time being reduced.
Church bells preventing me from sleeping in on Sunday? (Functionally no different than muezzin calls to prayer over loudspeakers) My inconvenience.
etc.
etc.
etc.

This is religion rammed down everyone's throat. I am forced to accept all of these or to actively oppose them.

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Quote:

It wasn't that the Concord gay population needed to express themselves. They had SF for that. It was the avant-guarde SF gays that had to rub their gayness in the faces of more traditional families in the 'burbs.

That's what pisses everyone off.

Quote:

In this case, Eleua expressed the answer w/ perfect precision.

Free people expressing Themselves as is Their Constitutional Right is all You got?

Sorry; but, that's so weak that it is not worthy of Anyone's Respect.

The question is:

Exactly how does 'their behavior' infringe upon Your Rights?

Eleua has provided NO answer whatsoever to My question.

I invite ANYONE to answer this question meaningfully instead of moaning about how they dislike seeing Other People exorcising Their Rights peacefully wherever and whenever They see fit to do so.

Until Someone can reasonably and unequivocally state:

"Their behavior INFRINGES ON MY RIGHTS THUSLY: ________________________________."

...They have NO real argument; only perfunctory regurgitation of Religious Ideology and Straw-Man Arguments about Their discomfort with changing Social Customs.

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides During times of universal deceit, telli

Widgeon, I get what you are saying and I agree. I think you would be surprised to know that a lot gay people feel the same way. They know this in your face agenda only hurts them.

The people you are referring to are very extreme and have an agenda to push at any cost. These are the same people that will Bash Beck, yet never listen to a word he says, but will praise Muslims and preach tolerance for the Mosque at ground zero.

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Arizona & desert gardening
http://azediblegarden.com/

Throxx,

I answered your question. If you don't like my answer (and I knew well in advance you wouldn't) that's your problem.

Is secular humanism a religion? How you answer that determines how you see the secular advance in society.

I say it is, and unlike indirect (non-taxes), my tax dollars directly fund it. IF you want to know where much of the outrage from social conservatives originates, start there.

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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-They wanted camps; I want ropes.

The problem is this:

They have the right to march in Public and those who will be offended by it *do* have the right to be offended.

But, they do not have the right to deny them to march or gather. Denying the march permit because it offends some is over-the-line.

Just stay home. Don't go to the area. Have a family picnic in the backyard. Etc.

And for those who don't want it in their family space, they more than likely need to turn the TV off. But I suspect they already know that.

Otherwise, it's the same dang thing as these people who are up in arms about Xtians in Public.

and this, my friends, is why we can't have nice things.

this is what wedge issues do. this is why dems like to throw that piece of red meat between two hungry dogs.

There are many good points here. and, following this thread throughout the day at work I believe most everyone is in agreement on the general tenor of the issue.

Today is not the day to debate this, my friends. Today is the day to decide we want to win in November. We all want the same thing.

When the dems throw a piece of red meat, carve a slice off their asses and toss it to the electorate. Every time they say christians hate gays the response is it was dem love for spending that put gays and everyone else out of work. And that it's time to put America back to work.

There will be trolls. We've seen them in this thread. Ignore them.

It's not about any of our beliefs. The guy who is unemployed with no way to feed his family could give two ****s about gay marriage, natural law, strict constitutionalism, the finer points of economic policy, bond spreads, or the war.

He wants a job. He wants to feed his ****ing family.

It's about winning in November.

Throxx,

I'm familiar enough with your body of postings and my own beliefs to understand that I will never satisfy you. You don't like my answer, but I did answer it.

Good luck winning without 2/3 of the base.

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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-They wanted camps; I want ropes.

Quote:

And for those who don't want it in their family space, they more than likely need to turn the TV off.

I don't have a tv and this is one of the major contributing factors.

Quote:

Just stay home. Don't go to the area. Have a family picnic in the backyard. Etc.

So, my only "rightful" response to such conflict then is that I must surrender the public space to the most extreme elements of society. That's what this solution proposes. Obviously, there's a big problem here.

@Widgeon,

That is their solution. Non-secular types embarass them and they don't like tolerant, but disapproving looks.

STFU.
Vote for THEIR candidate
Support THEIR issues
Stay out of sight
Don't disapprove of what they do
If they intrude on what is your's, yield

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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-They wanted camps; I want ropes.

Quote:

I don't want that lifestyle, etc. promoted to or in front of my kids. No one has "the Right" to force it into my Family Space.

What of those Who would say the same about ANY sort of Religious Belief whatsoever?

Are You just as willing to outlaw ALL public displays of Religious Symbols ( crosses, wedding bands, etc ), sale or dissemination of all books and discussions on Religious matters, ALL forms of proselytization, shutter all the Houses of Worship of ALL forms, abolish any legal recognition of Religious Contracts: IE Marriage or Religious Charities, etc...???

Think about what You are advocating.


Invert the question:

Exactly how does 'YOUR behavior' infringe upon Their Rights?


Do YOU want YOUR RIGHTS to be denied or infringed in these manners just because Someone Else is uncomfortable with YOUR Social Customs?

How can You reasonably advocate for such to be done against Others if You cannot and will not accede to such Yourself?

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides During times of universal deceit, telli

Medicdan-

I also know a lot of gays who are really really bothered by these in-your -face/sexuality on display marches.

Because, like you say, it does nothing for their cause.

Gay Rights Movement has been co-opted by the loudest extremists among them, just like every other movement.

Quote:

Good luck winning without 2/3 of the base.

Your threat is not only hollow, it's mathematically incorrect.

The "base" is about 2/3rds of the electorate, but it's evenly split.

You can't get all of the "Base" from either primary party. Not possible. At best you'll get half.

So that's 1/6th of the electorate.

But to get that 1/6th, you will******off and lose EVERY ONE of the other 1/3rd. That is, for every vote you get, you lose two.

That's a guaranteed loss, and what's worse is that the guy who you most-closely agrees with loses too.

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Quote:

So, my only "rightful" response to such conflict then is that I must surrender the public space to the most extreme elements of society. That's what this solution proposes. Obviously, there's a big problem here.

The Group attempting to INFRINGE and/or DENY the RIGHTS of the Other is the group which I consider 'Extreme'.

How is it that You can conceive that it is otherwise?

Exactly how does 'their behavior' infringe upon Your Rights?

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides During times of universal deceit, telli

You've said it clearly at least three times, Gen. Either he isn't listening, or he just can't get out of his box far enough to do math.

I'll repeat myself, as well: this entire thread is elegant testimony to the TRUTH of this ticker. Sad the advice won't be followed.

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'...But people better realize that the worst-case scenario could actually happen.9/11 happened. This can happen. An economic 9/11, the likes of which we've never seen.' Gerald Celente

Augmentedfourth, you mentioned intellectual honesty and I wanted to respond to you because the tone of your post sounded civil. When Rome co-opted Christianity, the world suffered the crusades. Progressive evolutionist via NAZI Germany's master race brought us the holocaust. Those wanting power may co-opt either. Not all evolutionists are progressive; some are Christians who believe in evolution.

Im speaking of progressive evolutionists that see themselves as more evolved, more intelligent and able to be dismissive of the gnats. See the early 1900s and eugenics. There are no "rights" of the individual, it is the greater good, and they determine who fits the greater good because they are superior.

Go back through the 11 pages of this thread; look at the phrases, the emotional content regarding Christians. Look for those phrases such as "mindless" "gnats" and other condescending comments that in all fairness were without any kind of real provocation. Glenn Beck holds a NON-Tea Party event and there is post after post condemning Christians. If you are intellectually honest, what level of anger would you put on it? Would hatred be close? Pretty close..

I would suggest that if you have a local tea party that is becoming a church service, and focusing on wedge issues that you go and talk to them. Be respectful and talk about how you feel uncomfortable and that it is turning away people. I know the folks that run our tea party are caring people that are doing what is natural for them and would not be aware that there is a segment of the population that is so adverse to religion. At the same time if they are just having prayer at the outset, try being tolerant and keep your eyes on the big picture.

No Widgeon.

You have the same right to march as they do.

"So, my only "rightful" response to such conflict then is that I must surrender the public space to the most extreme elements of society. That's what this solution proposes. Obviously, there's a big problem here."

Well, I hope that's not the answer. That would suck.

But I know one thing...the answer isn't making second class citizens out of a group of people.

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"Fear Disturbs your concentration" -- Sabine Schmitz

The day gay people have the same rights as heteros will be the day these Parades stop.

It's the only thing that would make the Gay Thing a Non-Issue.

For those who'd like to see the parades stop, you might want to think about that approach because I bet that's all it would take.

If you can't see it clear to grant them the same rights as others, then you'll just have to put up with the Parades, I suspect.

It's MY RIGHT as a Parent ... Until they turn 18. "Your" asserting your "Rights" is Infringing on My Rights. The solution is to chase me from the public space, which I am to accept w/o complaint or remark.

In an effort to bend over backwards to meet your requirement even though I don't accept your premises or terms; It Infringes My Right to Pursue Happiness.

FWIW, I see Eye-to-Eye w/ you on 99.5% of your contributions here ... but not on this issue.