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 To The Tea Party (And Related Organizations)
Eleua 22k posts, incept 2007-07-05

My first election was Zschau vs Cranston in California's senate race - 1986.

Cranston was vulnerable and Zschau was doing very well. Zschau refused to court any cultural conservatives under the hope that by being aloof to them, they wouldn't embarass him and energize the Left wing base.

The cultural conservatives sat on their hands that November day and Cranston won by 100K votes (small change in California).

Cranston won, and Zschau blamed the cultural conservatives.

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

If you are highly dismissive of cultural conservatives, they will sit on their hands. Dems know this. McCain was getting killed because his base was sitting on their hands, which is why he had to go for Palin. Without Palin, Obama would have crushed him. (JMC was going to lose anyway)

STFU.
Vote for OUR guy
Support OUR causes
stay out of sight
be glad we invite you to the party

Gen,

I love ya, man (in a "brotherhood" kinda way), but your numbers need some work.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/141032/2010-c....

Gallup has conservatives at 42%, and libs at 20%. Moderates are at 35% and declining.

Sorry, but that's not my poll.

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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-They wanted camps; I want ropes.

Honorius 430 posts, incept 2008-05-21

I have a question for Eleua: what prevent you from not talking about those issues?
Augmentedfourth 156 posts, incept 2010-04-16

Quote:
I don't want that lifestyle, etc. promoted to or in front of my kids. No one has "the Right" to force it into my Family Space.


Your "family space" is your individual and personally constructed boundary. How it is up to the government (or anyone else) to "protect it" from intrusion. We've basically come back around the idea that some particular Religion or set of "cultural norms" must be adopted by the government to protect your PERSONAL FEELINGS! Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. NOT guaranteed happiness. NOT freedom from feeling offended or uncomfortable.

Sorry, but the same ideals and rights that ALLOW FOR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM also allow for for FREEDOM OF [whatever sin]. Suck it up and live with it. Equal protection under the law works both ways.

Both sides MUST RELINQUISH SOME GROUND HERE! The social conservatives must accept that freedom of religion also provides for freedom of men holding hands on the streets. "Eww that's gross!" BFD! The social liberals must likewise realize that "freedom of religion" doesn't mean "freedom from religion". "Sob, sob there's no holiday for Zoroastrianism, I'm offended." BFD!

It's all selfishness.

(BTW, I can TOTALLY UNDERSTAND not wanting your tax money to contribute to those things you don't agree with. But, that is a different topic...)
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26

Again Eleua, there is no such thing as a "national" election. You don't vote for President nationally, you vote for state electors. You vote for senators and reps. The districts are gerrymandered to provide a "safe" margin.

You cannot win with your strategy. This is math, and it doesn't care if you agree with it or not.

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"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Eleua 22k posts, incept 2007-07-05

The Gallup polls I linked show that conservatism is rising through ALL ideological groups.

The big question is "What is a moderate?"

From this board (and a lifetime of experience with the issue), a moderate is most likely someone who discribes themselves as fiscally conservative but socially liberal.

I applaud your Ticker, and I agree with almost all of it. All I am saying is that if you are steadfastly going to abandon your flank, expect the attack to come there.

2010 is going to be a strange animal. If there is ever a time you could win by charging up the middle and leaving your flanks unguarded, it is 2010. I still say that is risky.

We will know in November when the secular moderates are blaming cultual conservatives for every failure and dismissing all their success.

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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-They wanted camps; I want ropes.
Eleua 22k posts, incept 2007-07-05

Honorius,

Please rephrase the question. I have no idea what you are asking.

Are you asking what it would take me to STFU, support socially liberal candidates, and stay out of sight?

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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-They wanted camps; I want ropes.
Ark 1k posts, incept 2009-07-10

No Widgeon. It really doesn't infringe on your right to happiness. Not for long, anyway. An afternoon maybe. Surely you can find some other way to be happy for a few hours than going downtown on "Gay Pride" (cough cough) Day.

FWIW, I think these Parades are obnoxious to the hilt and definitely steer clear when they happen.

It's not hard to do!


Augmentedfourth 156 posts, incept 2010-04-16

BTW, I have NO PROBLEM with" social feedback mechanisms", outrage, demonstrations, media...(ie. freedom of association)

However, the USE of THE GOVERNMENT and the FORCE OF LAW to officially enshrine YOUR beliefs as being superlative, is just wrong. The fact that the left has no problem doing that DOES NOT MEAN that the right should do it too!

You should be free to "disapprove" of gays. However, attempting to give them "distinction" within the law is completely antithetical to the founding philosophies of our country.

Widgeon 13k posts, incept 2007-08-30

Exactly correct ...

Our "Rights" are in conflict w/ each other if either presses them to their "legal" limit. Historically, that is where the cultural norms that Eleua described are brought in to maintain decency, order, etc.

Ignore the cultural norms and there will be conflict because no one can assert the full range of their "rights" w/o conflicting w/ others' rights.

Honorius 430 posts, incept 2008-05-21

I'm asking you why you like debating those issues.

Cause, right now, to me, it merely seem like your putting up resistance because you would like to keep discussing them.

It's the same kind of resistance I see when Karl says something along the line of "let's do something" and people say "we're powerless". Of course, what they actually say is that the system is rigged and that they're too cynical to do anything or that the left is corrupt, whatever it takes to not change the political environment (but I guess, mostly their act) much.

And you'll disagree and say whatever but the end result will still be the maintenance of your own statue quo. Not the world's statue quo but your own, your personnal relationship in regard to the world.
Widgeon 13k posts, incept 2007-08-30

Quote:
No Widgeon. It really doesn't infringe on your right to happiness.



Who are you to say what infringes my right to pursue happiness? That's MY RIGHT and I don't cede it's interpretation to you.

See my previous post.
Eleua 22k posts, incept 2007-07-05

@Gen,

Right back at ya.

All elections are local. I agree. Those trends I linked to must have some effect on local elections. Granted, not in Harlem, Watts, San Francisco, Seattle, or any urban wasteland.

All elections are local, as are all TP rallies. You live 30 miles from the highest church per capita ratio in the nation and one hour's drive from the Mecca of Home Schooling (Pensacola).

WTF were you expecting people at a Niceville TP rally to discuss after all the formal discussions were over? Seriously...

If I attend a TP rally at Westlake Center in Seattle, I expect the formal discussions and speakers to stay on topic (taxes, bailouts, fraud...), and then the aftermath to devolve into everyone discussing property values, saving the planet by driving a Prius, and how smart everyone is.

Would I correctly conclude that the TP is being hijacked by vainglorious twits and then write a Clearcut Bainbridge "ticker" on the subject? No.

Everything is local. You could go to Winn Dixie and get 12 guys picking out avacados and a discussion of natural law, homeschooling, or reloading would take place, because you live in NORTH FLORIDA.

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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-They wanted camps; I want ropes.
Abn0rmal 9k posts, incept 2009-01-10

Widgeon wrote..
Our "Rights" are in conflict w/ each other if either presses them to their "legal" limit. Historically, that is where the cultural norms that Eleua described are brought in to maintain decency, order, etc.
The only way that rights can work is if everyone's rights are the same. If you claim a right then you must grant the same right to everybody else.

Go ahead and claim that the public space must be kept free from displays of lifestyles that you do not approve if. Just don't get indignant when you aren't allowed to display your religion in public because someone else doesn't want his children exposed to it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Eleua 22k posts, incept 2007-07-05

I like debating these issues because I see lots of misinformation surrounding the subject, and have so since the mid-80s.


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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-They wanted camps; I want ropes.
Throxxofvron 10k posts, incept 2009-02-17

I cannot accept that answer without Your aquiescence to the same prohibition where Religious displays of any similar sort are concerned.

That constitutes something of a tragedy to Me, Widgeon.
-No, I'm not being facetious whatsoever.

I believe that any displays and activities that do not infringe upon the Civil Rights of Others in some meaningful way should not be prohibited.

It is not as if Homosexuals come proselytizing to Your door the way Religious Groups do.

( -Or, am I wrong and Gays come soliciting at Your door asking for donations to homosexual causes and exhorting You and Your Family to practice homosexuality?! )


People have the right to simply walk away from a Public display of whatever sort if it does not suit Them for whatever reason.


I know of no more Conservative a position than that of maintaining that ALL People have the same Civil Rights and Liberties; and that the Laws must be Equally applied to ALL Persons.

I defend the Rights of Persons to practice whatever Religious and/or Secular Lifestyle choices They may choose for Themselves as long as these do not materially infringe upon the Civil Rights of Others.

I must continue to defend this position as it protects the Rights of ALL Persons Who do not infringe upon or deny Others the Civil Liberties enumerated in the Constitution of the United States.

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides During times of universal deceit, telli

Ark 1k posts, incept 2009-07-10

As to the numbers thing, Im pretty sure that - rightly or wrongly- the TEAs have lost as many potential Dem and Independent votes (and probably more than a few Republican, Constitutinalist and Libertarian) as they've retained in any Xtian "base" votes over these wedge/social issues.

I'll stick with my get rid of the Dems at all costs for the foreseeable future.

At some point though, hopefully a died in the wool Constitutionalist or Libertarian Party will come along and I can forget about both these turds of Political Parties.
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26

Quote:
All elections are local, as are all TP rallies. You live 30 miles from the highest church per capita ratio in the nation and one hour's drive from the Mecca of Home Schooling (Pensacola).

WTF were you expecting people at a Niceville TP rally to discuss after all the formal discussions were over? Seriously...


Yeah, ok, and in Ft. Lauderdale, Liberal Mecca (NY Transplants) of the South?

I guess you're going to tell me that I didn't see the same shit there eh?

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"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."
Truthseeker 9k posts, incept 2007-10-07

A key point Eleua is that the central thesis of the Tea Party, indeed its genesis, is the fraud on Wall Street and the Beltway, and the bailouts. Those things have a UNIVERSAL attraction. Neither the left nor the right has ANY historic antipathy to the looting now going on, and have demonstrably forwarded the banksterization of politics.

If ANY third-party has ANY prayer of altering the current reality, they'd better stick to their knitting on what drives them. There'll be plenty of time to address nonsense issues when the REAL muscle-work required is done.

Go ahead and support whichever GOP-type will mouth your social agenda mantras, thereby extending the divide-and-conquer plan the two-party system was constructed to create.


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'...But people better realize that the worst-case scenario could actually happen.9/11 happened. This can happen. An economic 9/11, the likes of which we've never seen.' Gerald Celente
Zlow_hand 798 posts, incept 2008-01-22

It's about the economy.

Joe-bob 2k posts, incept 2007-09-18

Eleua wrote..
So, Christians don't have a right to redress of grievances? How about other rights?


Actually, your Bible and Jesus only tell you that the more you're persecuted for your belief here on earth, the greater your reward in heaven. No promise of redress from that quarter. (not before you die, that is)

On the other hand, the Germanic PAGAN traditions say you should have right of redress for grievances, that no man be he peasant or king can enter your home without your permission, that you should be judged by a jury of your peers, that your property rights are sacrosanct, and so on. Think about which side you are REALLY on.


And I'm sorry but yes you are the below picture. Bombed into the stone age. "Conservative," but forgetting what values Christendom/Western Europe had that were best and where they came from. Because the 60's radicals convinced everyone Western civilization was evil - even nowadays so-called conservatives now march to the beat of that drummer, crediting everything good to the Eastern religion it adopted.

All 'marked and 'membered, eh?


Inline

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Eleua 22k posts, incept 2007-07-05

Ark wrote..
The day gay people have the same rights as heteros will be the day these Parades stop.

It's the only thing that would make the Gay Thing a Non-Issue.


Enjoy that delusion. We were told the same thing that if Obama was elected, the "race card" would be over as a strategy. I seem to recall the "post racial" America.

It is played now more than ever.

Appeasement has never been a winning strategy. Gays have been saying "just this one more thing" would be needed for them to shut up. They are now at marriage, and won't stop there.


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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-They wanted camps; I want ropes.
Truthseeker 9k posts, incept 2007-10-07

Eleua wrote..
Gays have been saying "just this one more thing" would be needed for them to shut up. They are now at marriage, and won't stop there.


And where, pray tell, do you suppose the agenda that seems to frighten you lead, after that?

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'...But people better realize that the worst-case scenario could actually happen.9/11 happened. This can happen. An economic 9/11, the likes of which we've never seen.' Gerald Celente
Eleua 22k posts, incept 2007-07-05

Truthseeker,

Let's see how universal this "fiscal conservatism," anti-fraud, anti-bailout, and anti-government spending gets you when the Liberals in that crowd all figure out that the Welfare State and the funding of the Professional Left are going to be chopped to bits to balance the budget in a higher interest rate paradigm.

I'll give them 5 picoseconds before they turn on you.


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Diversity + proximity = WAR

-They wanted camps; I want ropes.
Tickerguy 198k posts, incept 2007-06-26

They'll want to take that back after a few turns through the divorce courts.. smiley

(Be careful what you wish for and all that)

Seriously, the solution to that is to get the fucking state out of it. Why do so-called Christians demand that the state insert itself into a religious sacrament?

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"Anyone wearing a mask will be presumed to be intending armed robbery and immediately shot in the face. Govern yourself accordingly."

Joe-bob 2k posts, incept 2007-09-18

Just abolish marriage as a LEGAL institution. Let any church perform whatever rites and print out whatever documents they wish. Got a problem with the Gay Church of Christ or whatever? Take it up in the religious culture wars, but leave my representational government out of it. I have a right to it not being your battlefield. Convince people on TV, door-to-door, wherever, as you will - they can freely accept or reject your opinions, and I can always change the channel or slam the door.

(Marriage is a contract between two people and God, not two people, God, and the State)

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