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Nadavegan
Posts: 66
Incept: 2017-05-03

The South
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RE: the "too much protein is bad for you" canard:

This bit of medical wisdom is based on a study performed on *rabbits* and then extrapolated to humans. The rabbits were force-fed a high-protein diet, and then examined for the results.

My daughter has a pet rabbit. I assure you, a rabbit's primary diet includes little to no protein whatsoever. In fact, there are certain grasses (alfalfa being one) that are to be avoided because their protein content is too high. Rabbits get a great deal of their protein requirement (which is quite small to begin with) from consuming cecatropes (pellets) containing the proteins produced by the bacteria residing in the rabbit's digestive system.

All that to say - why are people in such a hurry to jump on the "too much protein" bandwagon? Logic alone should dictate that cramming protein pellets into an herbivore would create health issues. Humans are not herbivores.
Tickerguy
Posts: 150696
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Quote:
This bit of medical wisdom is based on a study performed on *rabbits* and then extrapolated to humans. The rabbits were force-fed a high-protein diet, and then examined for the results.

No it's not.

Why don't you test it?

Eat a very high protein meal, but with zero carbohydrate. Run a baseline glucose before you eat it, then on the usual 30 minute, 1 hour, 2 hour and 3 hour time scales.

Do the same thing with a moderate protein, high fat, low carb meal (e.g. where you EAT said fat instead of eschewing it.)

Compare the two.

This is a trivially able to be performed experiment by you, in your home, with nobody else having the results. You cannot argue with the numbers.

I get REALLY ****ing annoyed at people who make arguments that are trivially falsifiable, and which I have personally falsified -- when they haven't TRIED to falsify it. Doing so around here frequently leads to a banhammer.

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Winding it down.
Nadavegan
Posts: 66
Incept: 2017-05-03

The South
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Apologies, I was not referring to the glucose spike, rather to the "it's bad for your kidneys" trope. I did not make that clear.
Tickerguy
Posts: 150696
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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It's not a trope; again, you're wrong.

Glucose synthesis from excess protein is a well-understood metabolic pathway and the metabolic process produces a fairly material increase in stress on the kidneys.

For someone in good health the kidney stress is unlikely to be harmful but the larger issue is that there's utterly no point to doing it. Not only is protein expensive compared with fat it's a much poorer-quality energy source, being 4kcal/gm (as with carbs) .vs. 7kcal/gm (for fats) AND you get ZERO benefit from it in terms of reducing insulin resistance.

You have to be literally crazy to go that route.

You pay more in cash since protein costs more per pound bought (by a lot), you'll pay nearly double in mass (which means the "more" in money will probably be at least 3x in dollars per meal if not worse) AND you are taking the risk (for no purpose whatsoever) of overstress on your kidneys with the attendant possibility of damage, never mind having none of the benefits of running your metabolic processes on fats.

Simply put there's no reason to consume protein beyond your actual metabolic requirements.

Run that **** somewhere else.

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Whitehat
Posts: 190
Incept: 2017-06-27

New York City
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Karl,

I am curious about something. Agree wholeheartedly with what you discuss regarding the benefits of high fat, low carb and have followed the same for over two decades. The question is that often fat and protein occur together, i.e. meat. Choices are always for the fatty cuts which are usually known as USDA Prime as opposed to choice which will by definition have a lower fat content. Using lamb also leans, pardon the negative pun, towards the higher fat content. The question then becomes how are people overdoing it on the protein unless they are using legumes, high protein processed **** or very lean meats.

Another question is dairy. It is an excellent source of fat, but there is an inflammatory issue. What do you think?

Thanks.

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There are two ways to be rich: One is by acquiring much, and the other is by desiring little.
Tickerguy
Posts: 150696
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Some people have a lactose issue but that's usually a non-factor with cheeses. Cheese typically has a near-perfect 80/20 balance between fat and protein. I almost-literally eat it by the BRICK. Other dairy tends to be pretty high in carbs, and thus I don't consume it. I don't care for milk (at all) so that's not exactly a difficult one to eschew for me.

Fat and protein almost always occur together in meats but where you're wrong is that the fattier cuts are more expensive. That's ONLY true for steak. Buy hamburger, 73/27 "rack grade" is the cheapest by FAR. Chuck (80/20) is more expensive and Sirlon (90/10 or 93/7) is ridiculous by comparison. Same deal for bacon; the cheapest is the fattiest, usually, and pork loins (untrimmed) are much cheaper than chops (trimmed.)

The problem is that people do things like grill a chicken breast (good) but then use a skinless breast (BAD twice -- first, you're throwing away the fat and second, it's MUCH more expensive per pound to buy the breast cutlets instead of split breasts!) Leg quarters are even cheaper than split breasts (sometimes can be had at HALF the price or less) and higher fat content still.

Basically to get "lean protein" you have to pay vastly more EXCEPT for "boutique" steaks. Everywhere else the fattier cut is both better for you in terms of energy content per unit of mass and money AND costs less.

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Bjonsson
Posts: 1056
Incept: 2010-03-10

Ventura County, California
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It's not the fat that causes human morbidity. It's INFLAMMATION.

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"If you don't have borders... if you don't have laws... you don't have a country."
Tickerguy
Posts: 150696
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Disagree entirely.

Obesity directly results in increased morbidity; it leads to direct joint damage, back damage and tends to cause high blood pressure (all on its own) for starters.

Inflammation is double-bad news of course, but if you think that being morbidly obese is not all on its own a direct cause of increased morbidity you're somewhere off in fairy-tale land.

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Bjonsson
Posts: 1056
Incept: 2010-03-10

Ventura County, California
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To clarify, when I was talking about fat, I was talking about eating fat... not being fat.

My point was that eating fat is not a necessary cause of morbidity, and instead, eating foods that create inflammation are the real culprit.

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"If you don't have borders... if you don't have laws... you don't have a country."
Tickerguy
Posts: 150696
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Well that's correct..... as long as we're talking about animal fats.

Nearly all plant-based oils are directly inflammatory due to their **** Omega 3:6 ratios. Animal fats are not.

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Whitehat
Posts: 190
Incept: 2017-06-27

New York City
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Thanks Karl,

I completely agree. Chicken quarter are like a best kept secret for inexpensive but nutritious food. The rule is to keep something as true to form as possible. Once you let the butcher start cutting and trimming, the price miraculously goes up.

Your ratios are a little confusing to me as some of the sources that I check especially for cheese seems to show an almost 50/50 ratio. Here is an interesting site for comparison:

www.fatsecret.ca

It is difficult to find "rack grade" chopped meat in my market. Usually chuck is the low cost higher fat option. When I look at your ratios though I am a bit confused as Sirloin is usually considered among the leanest options which would be lowest fat content. I believe that it is federal law that chopped meat can be no more that 30% fat by weight, not percentage of calories.

The website that i copied above lists the percentage calories fat/protein for regular ground beef as 62%/38%.


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There are two ways to be rich: One is by acquiring much, and the other is by desiring little.
Tickerguy
Posts: 150696
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Yes, it's by weight in those ratios -- 73/27 is by WEIGHT, not calories.

Protein is 4kcal/gm and fat is 7. If you're looking for caloric balance you have to do the math on that, obviously.

Cheddar cheese as an example has ~400 kcal/100gm. Of that it's roughly 300:100 fat/protein, so about 75% fat. Good.

70/30 ground beef is ~270:60 (fat/protein) on a total of 330, or ~80% fat which sounds good. The problem is that's raw, and you won't get all the fat in your pie hole after you cook it. This is why even cheap ground beef is over-protein after cooking; cooked you're going to wind up with a ratio more like 160:100 (100 grams cooked) for a total of 270 or ~60% fat/~40% protein; the rest winds up not in what you consume, and most of the "not what you consume" is the fat. Buy the "better" ground beef and the ratio skews even further the wrong way.

Sirloin is relatively lean -- and cheaper than Ribeye (which is fattier!) Steak is one of the very few places where higher fat content tends to cost more money.

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Whitehat
Posts: 190
Incept: 2017-06-27

New York City
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thanks Karl,

i was looking at your numbers wrong because i remember that here we used to discuss fat and protein as a percentage of calories, my bad for not thinking it through.

whenever i use chopped meat and many other fatty items, it is cooked in a porcelain enamel pan so that i can pour off the fats for a vegetable garnish, waste not want not.

another cost effective meat is London broil. in a large covered heavy pan it can be cooked with vegetables. this slab of meat is usually well marbled and very inexpensive.

i am interested in your opinion regarding the Omega ratios since you mentioned them previously. A Dr. Mercola has put out there that conventionally raised and finished meats have higher Omega 6 and that only grass fed has the proper ratio with the higher Omega 3. I will admit that some **** done with animal husbandry bothers me and i like to avoid it. Just curious your thoughts.

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There are two ways to be rich: One is by acquiring much, and the other is by desiring little.
Tickerguy
Posts: 150696
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Mercola can blow me.

His bull**** may dissuade people from eating lchfmp because they cannot afford the 300% increase in cost - which produces a tiny marginal benefit, if any at all.

**** him with a rusty chainsaw.

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Dennisglover
Posts: 909
Incept: 2012-12-05

Huntsville, AL
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3X the cost for eating right instead of suicidally? That has not been my experience.

But...

As has been pointed out before, eating LCHFMP might be marginally more expensive. But as has also been mentioned, the question really comes down to, "Expensive? As opposed to Type 2 diabetes, heart disease, inflammations, sensitivities, complications, and medications?"

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TANSTAAFL
Tickerguy
Posts: 150696
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
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Quote:
3X the cost for eating right instead of suicidally? That has not been my experience.

My point is this:

People like Mercola need to be fed to feral pigs. They run around talking about grass-fed as the holy grail and that you HAVE TO do it that way.

HORSE****!

What they are doing is telling people who CANNOT AFFORD to spend 200% or more on their meat that they may as well not bother. That's complete CRAP. You can buy dollar-a-pound or less chicken leg quarters, commercially produced, and a bag of frozen brussel sprouts and feed four people for $5. That's entirely consistent with a low-carb, high fat, moderate protein lifestyle -- and it's affordable by ANYONE. You can make that **** work on ****ING FOOD STAMPS!

You start with this free range, grass-fed **** and it's three times the price. Most people don't have it. What you end up doing is talking people out of getting 90% of the benefit because they can't get the alleged last 10%, which I'm not even sure exists.

People like that deserve a chainsaw up the ******* - rusty and running - as that sort of elitism horse**** KILLS PEOPLE.

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Dennisglover
Posts: 909
Incept: 2012-12-05

Huntsville, AL
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We have people here selling what they're calling "WAYGU" beef, "grass-fed" and all of that. From what I can learn, it's some variation on Kobe beef.

You know, beef is freaking beef. The fat content (marbling, etc.) is the point. Pamper your beef-steers and stuff, and maybe you can command $25/pound for ground beef, or $100/pound for steaks, if people want to spend that kind of money. I don't care to spend that kind of money.

My lunch yesterday was a one-trip salad bar with lots of raw broccoli, green peppers, onions, iceberg lettuce, some not-so-trustworthy ranch dressing, and so on, with a 12-ounce Delmonico steak. I devoured both, and enjoyed them, at a cost (with tip) of about $16.00, not five miles from my house. I finished eating about 1600 yesterday, and didn't eat again until after 1500 today. Hey, buds, I'm not hungry now.

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TANSTAAFL
Burya_rubenstein
Posts: 1277
Incept: 2007-08-08

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The last time I cooked bacon, I weighed the products. 8 ounces of raw meat cooked into about 1.75 ounces of crispy meat, which I ate right away, and almost 2 ounces of bacon grease, which I put into the refrigerator to solidify then munched on like a candy bar. That still leaves more than 50% of the mass unaccounted for, probably coating the walls and ceiling of my kitchen. (I do like bacon in spite of this.)
Asimov
Posts: 109564
Incept: 2007-08-26

East Tennessee Eastern Time
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When considering the cost of bacon, I have to also judge how much money the grease is going to save in butter... It's at least 1/2 the price.

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.

Festina lente.
Dennisglover
Posts: 909
Incept: 2012-12-05

Huntsville, AL
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In re: bacon!

There's a small farmer's market in a strip shopping center less than a mile from my place. They grow their vegetables (peppers, beans, tomatoes, greens, etc.) on a 5-acre plot adjacent to the shopping center.

They also raise some pretty gargantuan hogs at their family farm, and they sell some of the pork products in the market, mostly preserved (smoked, salted, etc.), but a good bit of pork bellies and the like. I've just about replaced bacon with salt pork except for things like my special turkey wrapped with thick smoked-peppered bacon.

The last time I roasted turkey that way the 4 pounds of bacon was all consumed before the turkey was touched! (Golly, that was 7 years ago on Thanksgiving.)

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TANSTAAFL
Hstella
Posts: 712
Incept: 2009-08-18

Colorado
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The only reason for me to visit whole paycheck is thats the only store near me that ever carries Delmonico steaks - I clean them out every time I find them. A close cousin is the Denver steak. Both are a whole lot like ribeye with half the price tag. Also, while it does have some additives, Green Giant makes mashed cauliflower, flavored either with sour cream and chives or bacon. Not that you cant add some lovely bacon fat or butter to it anyway. I can make it myself just fine, but it takes 30ish minutes, and I can find the frozen version at Safeway, King Soopers and even Walmart.
Dennisglover
Posts: 909
Incept: 2012-12-05

Huntsville, AL
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Appreciate the shout-out regarding the GG cauliflower products!

(I've been seeing an ad on the boob-tube about some Oprah Winfrey product: a fraction of it is mashed potatoes, the rest is "yummy" cauliflower, additives, preservatives, and who knows what else. I'll be ignoring the product even more than I do the ads.)

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TANSTAAFL
Ckaminski
Posts: 4311
Incept: 2011-04-08

Mass-Hole!
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Quote:
I can make it myself just fine, but it takes 30ish minutes


10 minutes, whole, in the steamer, and then a minute of mashing. Totally worth going fresh.

My steamer is my #3 kitchen appliance after my crock-pot and 16" cast iron fry pan.
Whitehat
Posts: 190
Incept: 2017-06-27

New York City
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Karl,

agree wholeheartedly with your opinion regarding Mercola. When people go extreme like him, they also make it impossible to have a reasonable debate concerning issues that are actually harmful. but of course you cannot sell reasoned debate. i was a patient of his for a short time when working on the not die project. he used to be into eating raw meats big time, including **** like poultry which can be very dangerous even with the best product and under ideal conditions. he seems to have dialed back on that insanity. it used to be his cure for everything. just do this and you will instantly heal. bull****. yes, unadulterated food has obvious benefits and some things raw are very good for you. however, some absorption issues occur with all raw along with extra calories needed for digestion. in compromised individuals this can be dangerous.

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There are two ways to be rich: One is by acquiring much, and the other is by desiring little.
Hstella
Posts: 712
Incept: 2009-08-18

Colorado
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Ckaminski: how do you mash in 1 minute? My blender hates cauliflower. The microwaving to cook it down takes a while, too.
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