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| Boeing 787 Batteries: Unsafe At Any Altitude? in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Digitlman
Posts: 335
Incept: 2011-03-04
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Aloha Air needs to buy these so they can have in-flight pig roasts. What a way to say "Welcome to Hawaii"!
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Uwe
Posts: 6457
Incept: 2009-01-03
19446
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A fire on board the aircraft is darn near a pilot's worst nightmare. This is doubly true when the aircraft is used for long-haul over-water routes, where it's often several hours away from anywhere it could make an emergency landing.
-Uwe-
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“Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience.” - John Locke
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Heffalump
Posts: 131
Incept: 2008-04-05
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How much does this bloody thing weigh?
Because airlines are not (yet?) charging passengers by their weight, it's possible to get quite large variation just because having smaller or bigger people on board. So, if the weight savings from higher energy density are less than a couple hundred kilograms, why bother at all?
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"If rate I raise, burst, the frothy bubble will. If rates I lower, inflation will I get. Unclear, is the housing market."
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Bagbalm
Posts: 4263
Incept: 2009-03-19
Just North of Detroit
Online
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If airlines and customers refuse to trust these planes what is the impact of Boeing having a serious dud on the overall economy? Seems to me aircraft orders were the key to several recent reports being less than disasters.
Plainly - is this a potential black swan event?
Reason: add material
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Deckchairs
Posts: 97
Incept: 2012-07-06
The Slightly lessDemocrat -IC People's Rebuplic of Las
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Quote: Unsafe at any altitude But certainly safer on the tarmac!!
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If I could just get my tax attorney to be my girlfriend life would be all right.
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Digitlman
Posts: 335
Incept: 2011-03-04
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Bag: Boeing went from 183 orders in Dec to just 2 in Jan.
That's gonna hurt real quick.
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Crzymorse
Posts: 1195
Incept: 2010-06-25
Maryland
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Moral to the story is never use the word "dream" when launching a new airplane class.
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Trades50
Posts: 4218
Incept: 2007-10-30
Land of Tax and Spend
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Quote: Aloha Air needs to buy these so they can have in-flight pig roasts.
A Boeing 737 (Aloha flight 243) turned convertible in Hawaii. http://www.aloha.net/~icarus/and it still flew. Wonder how an older 787 would come out with that fatigue.
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When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Azengrcat
Posts: 184
Incept: 2010-05-31
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Boy if the FAA "winked winked" Boeing through the battery qual, I wonder what the composite testing was like?
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Pattonme
Posts: 37
Incept: 2011-09-27
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And the whole selling point of this albatros was beating the drum over a couple percent in efficiency gains. WTF yo! The cheaped out on the alternators such that the output is completely all over the map voltage/amp-wise to save a few pounds. they no longer bleed 3% of turbine output to power cabin/controls which was the entire vaunted 3% increase in efficiency. But doing so they had to have a battery pack and Pb/Acid took up too much space/weight.
The whole thing is a politically correct boondoggle with parts made by a zillion sub-contractors of questionable quality from all over the world which has led to all kinds of problems just in assembly clearances.
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Thetemplateblog
Posts: 984
Incept: 2008-10-21
Pa
Online
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I have used this batteries in RC planes.
They are NASTY when they get damaged. A lot of people I know store them outside in the grill with a plastic bag of sand sitting over the top of them. Sometimes you can't even tell they are damaged until they start swell and catch fire.
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If it moves and it shouldn't, use duct tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD40. - go smoke in your little yellow circle...****ing sheep
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Mdm
Posts: 333
Incept: 2010-10-13
South Florida
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The FAA will go through the motions on this and eventually give it the all clear. It is going to take people dying from one of these things catching fire and crashing for any real fix to be required.
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Digitlman
Posts: 335
Incept: 2011-03-04
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My RC plane uses LiPo - Lithium Polymer....which are supposed to be even more volatile.
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Thetemplateblog
Posts: 984
Incept: 2008-10-21
Pa
Online
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@Digitlman - Your right, thanks for the correction.
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If it moves and it shouldn't, use duct tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD40. - go smoke in your little yellow circle...****ing sheep
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Genesis
Posts: 130798
Incept: 2007-06-26
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TheTemplate: Hell, I have one of these in my RAID controller.
Well, guess what -- during my regular maintenance I was inspecting the machine and the battery was started to bulge out!
Needless to say that got disconnected and replaced PRONTO.
I could have very easily had a fire in my server, but that battery was small and while the fire would have probably destroyed the server, I doubt it would have done anything more than that, simply because there isn't enough material there to propagate and what's in the case won't burn (for the most part.)
But in a composite plane THE COMPOSITES THEMSELVES WILL BURN. If you've ever seen a fiberglass boat go up you know exactly what I'm talking about -- it's damned near impossible to put that **** out once it gets lit too.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Aquapura
Posts: 131
Incept: 2012-04-19
Land of 10,000 taxes
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I'm no expert on battery technology but I think it's a bit premature to make predictions of this aircraft being a flop.
How many people died in DC-10's in the 1970's? There were several major accidents which killed 100's and that aircraft went on to success. Boeing's last completely new airframe, the 777, is arguably one of the safest planes ever. I have complete confidence the issues will be resolved and the 787 will live a long life as a very safe aircraft.
As for carbon fiber, Airbus has been using this from the begining and many parts of modern aircraft are already carbon fiber. Boeing just took the next step in evolution and made the entire hull carbon fiber. With modern CAFE rules for light vehicles I would wager more and more of our cars will be carbon fiber.
What scares me more than the aeronautical engineering of planes is pilot error. That puts down more planes than engineering flaws. Some notable recent incidents were the Air France flight that went into the Atlantic and the Colgon Air flight in Buffalo. Both where the pilot pulled up on the yolke/joystick instead of pushing forward to recover from a stall. That's piloting 101 and anyone with Microsoft Flight Simulator should know.
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Jpg
Posts: 329
Incept: 2009-03-23
MI
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heffalump wrote..if the weight savings from higher energy density are less than a couple hundred kilograms, why bother at all?
As a rule of thumb, on longer flights an extra kilogram of weight on the airplane will cause it to burn an additional kilogram of fuel. 100 kilograms of weight, 100 kilograms of fuel. At $1 per kilogram for fuel on every flight over the life of the airplane, there's a powerful incentive to save weight. I even remember one airline a few years ago that was trying to encourage passengers to take a leak before getting on the plane, to save weight.
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Cabbage_the_cat
Posts: 76
Incept: 2009-03-28
Atlanta, GA
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Valuejet 529 comes immediately to mind.
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Otiswild
Posts: 5627
Incept: 2009-03-09
Inside you, the force is!
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Quote:I could have very easily had a fire in my server, but that battery was small and while the fire would have probably destroyed the server, I doubt it would have done anything more than that, simply because there isn't enough material there to propagate and what's in the case won't burn (for the most part.) You'd have had legitimate need to halt -n! (I had a Macbook battery that swelled up, Apple replaced it for free out of warranty when I brought it by an Apple store. Guess they didn't want to risk a(nother) exploding battery story!)
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Aabikrman
Posts: 13
Incept: 2010-06-18
Livingston, texas
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Here's a link to the NTSB press release of yesterday 07Feb2013. I haven't read the WSJ article that is cited but the NTSB also says:
Chairman Hersman said that potential causes of the initiating short circuit currently being evaluated include battery charging, the design and construction of the battery, and the possibility of defects introduced during the manufacturing process.
My contacts are telling me that a redesign of the battery compartment is also likely to be made for safety reasons.
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Aabikrman
Posts: 13
Incept: 2010-06-18
Livingston, texas
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Lenguado
Posts: 1272
Incept: 2010-01-12
Orlando, FL
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Quote:A fire on board the aircraft is darn near a pilot's worst nightmare. This is doubly true when the aircraft is used for long-haul over-water routes, where it's often several hours away from anywhere it could make an emergency landing. AND, it's made of PLASTIC. . . FWIW
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I just realized... they aren't saying, "Keynesian Economics" they're saying "Kenyansian Economics". Grass Huts for everyone! Welcome to history’s first Double Dip Depression
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Sunkeye
Posts: 190
Incept: 2010-12-14
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Yeah this battery glitch is unnerving stuff. But Boeing is one of the greatest organizations in the history of the world. And the sentence above is not an exaggeration in any way. At all.
The engineers at BA will solve this of that I have no doubt. And the 787 will go on to be a major part of future commercial aviation.
If you've ever taken the tour of the assembly plant up in Everett I bet you'd strongly hold the same opinion. Looking down at the Dreamliners from the tour gallery mezzanine as Boeing personnel are bringing them to whole is one of the more memorable sights I've ever seen. I highly recommend the experience if you're ever in Seattle.
For sure there were pressures to get 787s delivered and out on the line, but the plane is an extremely impressive technolgical advancement. And after the battery problem gets fixed - and it will - I wouldn't hesitate a second to step aboard. I look forward to flying in it.
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Muscleknight
Posts: 3993
Incept: 2007-06-26
Columbia, SC
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Every time I see a 787 picture I think of the Comet. Didn't several of those crash right after entry into service?
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