ENOUGH! (Guns, Active Shooters And Pharma)
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2013-01-11 12:38
by Karl Denninger
in 2ndAmendment
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ENOUGH! (Guns, Active Shooters And Pharma)
 

I'm done being nice.

And I'm doubly-done with the damned leftists in this country performing the moral equivalent of ritual human sacrifice of children to advance their gun-control agenda.

That's what I charge they're doing. 

And I'm going to back it up with mathematics, using just one of the common psychotropic medications used commonly today -- Paxil.

This is from the prescribing information for Paxil:

Clinical Worsening and Suicide Risk:

Patients with major depressive disorder (MDD), both adult and pediatric, may experience worsening of their depression and/or the emergence of suicidal ideation and behavior (suicidality) or unusual changes in behavior, whether or not they are taking antidepressant medications, and this risk may persist until significant remission occurs. Suicide is a known risk of depression and certain other psychiatric disorders, and these disorders themselves are the strongest predictors of suicide. There has been a long-standing concern, however, that antidepressants may have a role in inducing worsening of depression and the emergence of suicidality in certain patients during the early phases of treatment. Pooled analyses of short-term placebo-controlled trials of antidepressant drugs (SSRIs and others) showed that these drugs increase the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults (ages 18-24) with major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders. Short-term studies did not show an increase in the risk of suicidality with antidepressants compared to placebo in adults beyond age 24; there was a reduction with antidepressants compared to placebo in adults aged 65 and older. 

That's a problem.  What's worse is this:

The following symptoms, anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, hostility, aggressiveness, impulsivity, akathisia (psychomotor restlessness), hypomania, and mania, have been reported in adult and pediatric patients being treated with antidepressants for major depressive disorder as well as for other indications, both psychiatric and nonpsychiatric. Although a causal link between the emergence of such symptoms and either the worsening of depression and/or the emergence of suicidal impulses has not been established, there is concern that such symptoms may represent precursors to emerging suicidality.

And it doesn't end there:

Screening Patients for Bipolar Disorder

A major depressive episode may be the initial presentation of bipolar disorder. It is generally believed (though not established in controlled trials) that treating such an episode with an antidepressant alone may increase the likelihood of precipitation of a mixed/manic episode in patients at risk for bipolar disorder.

Now let's be frank: Mixed manic states are mental states during which all sorts of really ugly things happen, including panic attacks, agitation, impulsiveness, paranoia and rage -- all at extreme levels.

In other words, if you miss someone being bipolar and give them this drug you may precipitate a full-on Hulk-style "rage monster" sort of attack!

How often does something like this happen?

Activation of Mania/Hypomania:

During premarketing testing, hypomania or mania occurred in approximately 1.0% of unipolar patients treated with PAXIL compared to 1.1% of active-control and 0.3% of placebo-treated unipolar patients. In a subset of patients classified as bipolar, the rate of manic episodes was 2.2% for PAXIL and 11.6% for the combined active-control groups. As with all drugs effective in the treatment of major depressive disorder, PAXIL should be used cautiously in patients with a history of mania.

So if you miss a bi-polar person in your "analysis" before prescribing, it's more than doubly-likely that they will have a "rage-monster" episode than if not.

So let's assume we're not talking about bi-polar people -- that is, let's make the assumption that we properly screen for each person and perfectly identify all bi-polar people before we prescribe.

What is the expected number of people who will undergo some sort of manic episode, which includes the subset that will turn into rage-monsters and shoot up schools, movie theaters and other public places?

Answer: About 0.7% more that can be charged to the drug (the risk if you do nothing is 0.3%.)

Other similar drugs have similar risk profiles; Paxil is not particularly-remarkable in this regard. 

I note, and you should note, that 0.7% is a pretty low risk!  That is, 993 people out of 1000 can get a perfectly good outcome from the drug (or at least no harm) but that other 7 in 1000 have an outcome ranging from bad to catastrophically-bad.

Now let's assume for the sake of argument that we are 99% effective in physician monitoring of these patients.  That is, we're able to somehow confirm that they take the drug exactly as prescribed (no more or less), and we have enough time and physician resources to evaluate them on a regular and continuing basis.  This, incidentally, is a fantasy-land level of performance; no profession could possibly meet that standard of care, but we'll use it to make the point.

But this level of performance, which we can never meet, would provide that of the rage monsters we potentially create with these drugs we catch 99% of them before the episode escalates into something "bad."

That's 1% of 0.7%, incidentally, or 0.007% of the total users who (1) have the bad reaction and then (2) we fail to detect via monitoring.  In other words, those are the people who shoot up the schools, movie theaters and US Representatives.

The last figures I have are that in 2005 27 million people in the United States, or close to 1 in 10 of all persons, are on some sort of antidepressant carrying these risks.

So if 0.7% of 27 million people have a manic episode caused by these drugs -- that is, under perfect conditions where we catch every single bipolar individual first and never prescribe to any of them we will have 189,000 persons in a year who have a manic reaction to these drugs.

That's horrifying. 

But what's worse is that if we assume 99% effective surveillance by the medical profession -- that is, 99% of the time the doctor intercepts the person with the manic episode and modifies or terminates their use of the drug before something bad happens....

WE CREATE AND THEN FAIL TO DETECT, WITH NEARLY PERFECT PERFORMANCE (that we will never achieve) 1,890 RAGE MONSTERS EVERY YEAR WHO ARE MENTALLY CAPABLE OF COMMITTING A MASS HOMICIDE.

We're surprised that there are a few of these a year, when we create more than 5 of them each and every day with near-perfect performance -- and likely several times that many given the real-world monitoring that can actually be achieved?

We create these Zombies.

We prescribe the drugs to them.

We do this knowing that the risk exists and that at least one subset of that risk is materially higher for those under the age of 25 who are consuming these drugs. 

In point of fact, most of the rage monsters who have committed these crimes are under the age of 25 and either using or having recently terminated the use of these drugs.

Again I reproduce the information directly from the maker of Paxil:

There has been a long-standing concern, however, that antidepressants may have a role in inducing worsening of depression and the emergence of suicidality in certain patients during the early phases of treatment. Pooled analyses of short-term placebo-controlled trials of antidepressant drugs (SSRIs and others) showed that these drugs increase the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults (ages 18-24) with major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders. Short-term studies did not show an increase in the risk of suicidality with antidepressants compared to placebo in adults beyond age 24;

Something changes around the age of 24 with these drugs and their interaction with the human mind.  We don't know exactly what it is, but we know that it happens.  We also know that these substances have a low but present risk of inducing mania -- and one of the many ways that mania may express includes rage.

Utterly nobody is bringing this element to the table in debate, but we must, as the rise of these incidents is directly correlated to the gross increase in the number of people, including most-especially young people, taking these drugs.  The number of users doubled from 1996 - 2005.

If you want to address a problem you must look at the data and follow it where it leads. 

Where it leads is into a horrifying mess of prescription psychotropic drug use among our youth and the rare but catastrophic side effects they sometimes produce.

I have friends who have versions of the problem in their families among older individuals; members of the family who doctor-shop for prescription on top of prescription and are mentally questionable to start with.  We're supposed to have some sort of reasonable check and balance on this and indeed Florida claims to have clamped down on the "pill mills" but I can tell you right now that this is utter and complete crap.  There is nothing preventing people from going to 10 different doctors until they find three or four that will write scripts and then abusing the drugs -- and when they run out "early" calling up for a refill -- and getting it.  It happens every damned day and if other family members try to intervene, including getting the physicians or the law involved (prescription fraud is supposed to be illegal!) they're blown off!

It's true that most of the crazy people in the world aren't violent, and that being crazy, standing alone, is perfectly legal.  It's also true that nearly all of the people who take these drugs won't become violent -- that's a side effect that only bites a tiny percentage of the people who take the drug.

But the risk of turning people into rage monsters and suicidal maniacs appears to be mostly confined to those under the age of 24 according to the drug companies own information and this information is strongly correlated with the actual real-world data on these incidents.

We must have a discussion about this as a society.  We might decide that out of the 27 million or more Americans taking these drugs that enough get benefit that we are willing to accept the occasional school or movie theater shooting gallery as the price of prescribing these drugs to those under the age of 24.

If so then we need to be honest about the trade-off we have made as a society and shut the hell up instead of dancing in the blood of dead children to score political points and destroy The Constitution.

But if not, and you can count my vote among the "No" votes in this regard, then we must ban these substances from those under the age of 24 until we understand what's different among that age group that alters the risk unless and except those persons are under continual professional supervision such as inpatient hospitalization.

Yeah, I understand this will cut into the profits of the big drug companies and thus is "unacceptable" to many political folks, not to mention that the media won't even talk about the subject due to the advertising they run on their networks on a daily basis for this drug or that.

But unless we want to keep burying kids we had damned well better have that debate.

Mr. Biden, Mr. Obama and the rest on both the left and right who are refusing to go where the data leads are all practicing the moral equivalent of ritual child sacrifice, fueling the pyre under the bodies of our kids with the Bill of Rights.

Stand up America and say in a loud voice: ENOUGH!

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Harrisonact
Posts: 1754
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canada
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uh, I'm officially a bipolar person, taking meds for it.

I've never had a rage moment, but I'll admit to being really negative at times

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bilge
My playbook speaks espańol. Deal with it. Im too lazy to fix it.
Genesis
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I understand Harrison -- a lot of people use these drugs and get benefit from them.

But the firms' own data says that those under 24 are at unique risk, and this correlates almost EXACTLY, both in terms of the risk and how that risk expresses, with the people who are committing these acts -- and the aggressors are, nearly to an individual, using the drugs.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Winstonsmith2009
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John Stossel on gun control myths:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YTM_eAW....

from which I learned of this:

2002 Appalachian School of Law shooting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian....

On January 16, 2002, 43-year-old Nigerian former student Peter Odighizuwa[1][2] arrived on the Appalachian School of Law campus with a handgun.[3] Odighizuwa first discussed his academic problems with professor Dale Rubin, where he reportedly told Rubin to pray for him.[3] Odighizuwa returned to the school around 1:00 pm and proceeded to the offices of Dean Anthony Sutin and Professor Thomas Blackwell, where he opened fire with a .380 ACP semi-automatic handgun. According to a county coroner, powder burns indicated that both victims were shot at point blank range.[3] Also killed was student Angela Dales. Three students were wounde

According to Bridges: at the first sound of gunfire, he and fellow student Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to retrieve their personally-owned firearms[6] placed in their glove compartments. Mikael Gross, a police officer from Grifton, North Carolina retrieved a 9 mm pistol and body armor.[7] Bridges, a county sheriff's deputy from Asheville, North Carolina[8] retrieved his .357 Magnum pistol from beneath the driver's seat of his Chevrolet Tahoe.[9] Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun.[10] Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm and was subdued by several other unarmed students, including Ted Besen and Todd Ross.

-------------

Also notable from that wikipedia entry:

"Police reports later noted that two empty eight round magazines designed for Odighizuwa’s handgun were recovered."

.380 ACP, not .223. EIGHT rounds, not ten, not 20 or 30. EIGHT. Thus, by gun grabber "logic," mag capacities should be reduced to seven? By that "logic", eventually we'll be down to single shot black powder weapons, then pellet guns, then BB guns, then paintball guns... Finally, we'll be talking about banning sharp objects like they currently are in the UK.
Agau
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Gen

Don't drive on roads with boulders
Hikaruwsulu
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I don't like this idea at all and I wonder how many deaths would result from non-treatment; I think this likely would amount to "death-shifting" (similar to the "cost-shifting" to which our host often refers) and strongly suspect that the number of depression-related deaths for those under-24 would soar and that the net effect would be more deaths, overall, even if one accepts the argument that the number of in-school shooting deaths would decline.

Further, I'm not sure I buy into the premise that anti-depressants are a/the cause of these shootings. One who commits such a crime is, axiomatically, seriously mentally ill; it logically follows that people with mental-health issues are the most likely people to be taking anti-depressants. Net: it's a big leap from correlation to causality, here. Anyway, it seems like the perpetrators of these crimes often are schizophrenic and should be treated with more powerful drugs than anti-depressants (and, coincidentally, schizophrenia tends to manifest in the late-teens/early-twenties).

Depression runs in my family, and I had a nasty bout in my early-twenties after breaking up with a long-time girlfriend. I finally sought help when the suicidal ideations became so persistent that I couldn't shake them off (and sometimes, I literally tried to shake them off by shaking my head - the logical part of me understood that I was young and had much to live for). There's a reasonable case to be made that antidepressants saved my life back then, for which I'm very grateful.
Noodleman
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Messing with brain chemicals is a very messy business. You know, it's very interesting that for the anti-depressant class of drugs they've done studies showing that many clinically depressed individuals get relief from the 'placebo effect'. In other words, if the doc gave them sugar pills they would feel better. As a matter of fact, I have read studies that as many as 50% of depressed patients in clinical trials given placebos find that their depression lifts. The power of suggestion with the human animal is enormous. But the studies also show that a greater percentage of those who are given the real stuff find relief (can't remember exactly - but maybe in the range of 75%-80%). And brain chemical are so complex that one AD (ie. Paxil) may not work, yet another (ie. Zoloft) may do the trick. And anxiety is a common symptom of depression so the doc may use multi-pharmcological tricks to treat the patient (anxiolytic (tranquilizer) + AD). It's complicated stuff. Very complicated.

I believe most docs warn the patient that if they feel suicidal after taking the AD to discontinue the AD immediately. If they don't they should have their license taken away. I really don't know how this problem could be effectively addressed. So many people are seemingly helped by AD's that it would be tough to ban them. I guess the answer is better screening by the docs and not to prescribe unless absolutely necessary. But a family doc just doesn't have the time to psychoanalyze his patient - so he reaches for the script pad.

I think only licensed shrinks should prescribe AD's. If a patient is really suicidal and need relief immediately - her or she should go to an ER to see a shrink immediately. There is a shortage of them because we have so many crazy people in America and because the AMA limits training programs for docs who want to become shrinks to keep supply low and demand high - so the salaries remain high.

It's a very complicated problem. I guess if we could wrap bandages around their heads and put them on aspirin we would do it.

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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935

Bonanza
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Excellent analysis.
Quote:
The last figures I have are that in 2005 27 million people in the United States, or close to 1 in 10 of all persons, are on some sort of antidepressant carrying these risks.

Perhaps I misread, but isn't the increased risk indicated only for those under age 25?

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"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
Genesis
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I'm not saying ban them -- I'm saying that the correlation factor which we have knowledge of in the form of actual clinical data -- and is expressed on the label -- is that these drugs cause problems on a statistical basis for a certain age group (teens to early 20s.)

Now exactly why we don't know. But we know it happens. And we also know that the "active shooters" are almost all in this age group AND they're using these drugs.

Statistically, we are creating these Rage Monsters.

The societal debate to have is whether we're willing to pay that price for whatever treatment benefit that age group gets from these drugs in the current prescribing regime. Should we limit these to institutional use only among that age group, ban them entirely among that age group, greatly tighten up surveillance of people in that age group on them or do nothing?

The point being that "do nothing", what we're doing now, creates a price. There's a debate to be had on the price and the benefit. If the price is judged after that debate to be worth it, then we shut up and accept the price.

But what is utterly outrageous and indefensible is wiping the floor of dead kid's blood with the Bill of Rights. That I will not tolerate and neither should you.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Genesis
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Bonanza: For SUICIDE, yes. For other activation disorders, we don't know from the label information. I SUSPECT yes, but I don't KNOW.

But what we DO know is that the rage monster pattern is someone in that age group that is ALSO taking these drugs.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Bonanza
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Got it, thanks. I suspect you are correct.

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"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
Nuke_engineer
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Is anyone getting blood samples of the killers? If not, why not?

Could an FOIA on the contents of mass murderer blood start shaking things up?

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Trading and investing is understanding about people, emotions and corruption of government, corporations, banks and people using propaganda, lies, mathematics and bankster logic working against you.

Noodleman
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I personally think the answer is turning over the responsibility of prescribing all psychotropics for serious mental illness to shrinks, especially when the drug has been shown to produce rage or suicidal thoughts as a side-effect. And depression is a serious mental illness. Make no doubt about it.

Put prescribing psychotropics in the hands of our highest trained professional specialists. Family docs just don't have 50 minutes to spend with a patient to determined if he or she was potty trained incorrectly.

That might not be the complete solution. But it's a darn good start.

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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935

Agau
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Lets not forget that half of violent crimes are committed
by young black males
Ben
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The Distant, Glorious, Past
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"Something changes around the age of 24 with these drugs and their interaction with the human mind. We don't know exactly what it is, but we know that it happens. We also know that these substances have a low but present risk of inducing mania, including rage."

I noticed that I no longer smelled 'young' at 24, and at age 25 all of us have our cranial plates 'lock' into place and harden. Prior to that our skulls are more fluid.

Many people report that they feel the same way from age 26/27 for the rest of their lives.

It is at this age, 24-27, where people's minds, brains, identities and body chemistry, solidify into who they think themselves as 'being me and who I am'.

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"Why are you going to learn French?"
"Because I'm going to France," says Joe.
"I'm from the future. You should go to China."
Noodleman
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Oh, this is another possible solution:

The docs could give patients a 'sugar pill' to treat mild to low moderate depression since studies have shown placebos to have as high as a 50% efficacy rate. Most AD studies show a VERY high placebo success rate.

Naturally, that would never happen because it would create massive numbers of lawsuits and a shrink's malpractice costs would be as high or higher than a gynecologist.

Plus, the pharma companies would fight it tooth and nail.

But it would help allieveate some of the problems, if that is the intention.

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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935

Flaps10
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agau wrote..
Gen

Don't drive on roads with boulders


Yep.

Quote:
This is the last post John Noveske made on his Facebook page before he was killed:

Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold's medical records have never been made available to the public.

Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather's girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.

Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.

Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.

Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.

Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..

A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.

Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.

TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.

Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.

James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.

Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania

Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California

Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.

Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.

Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic's file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.

Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.

Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.

Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.

Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.

Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family's Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.

Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara's parents said ".... the damn doctor wouldn't take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil...")

Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002,
(Gareth's father could not accept his son's death and killed himself.)

Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family's detached garage.

Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.

Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.

Woody ____, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.

A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.

Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and "other drugs for the conditions."

Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.

Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.
Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.

Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his
New York high school.

Missing from list... 3 of 4 known to have taken these same meds....

What drugs was Jared Lee Loughner on, age 21...... killed 6 people and injuring 14 others in Tuscon, Az

What drugs was James Eagan Holmes on, age 24..... killed 12 people and injuring 59 others in Aurora Colorado

What drugs was Jacob Tyler Roberts on, age 22, killed 2 injured 1, Clackamas Or

What drugs was Adam Peter Lanza on, age 20, Killed 26 and wounded 2 in Newtown Ct
Roberts is the only one that I haven't heard about being on drugs of some kind.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/038616_John_N....

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"Better to die on your feet than live on your knees"
Ricrain
Posts: 12
Incept: 2009-05-04
Green
Dallas, TX
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Karl, keep in mind that these labeled behaviors are under controlled clinical trials. These are symptoms observed during normal dosage patterns. One of the scariest things you can do on an SSRI is to suddenly stop taking a large dose or withdraw (step down) too quickly. This produces very severe symptoms (Serotonin Storm), which, as far as I can tell, have not been studied formally with the contemporary drugs.

Another symptom I have not seen documented, as described by someone I knew taking Zoloft at the 150mg level, is detachment: the tendency to regard everything traumatic or dramatic as ‘like watching a movie’… ‘it didn’t feel real.’ Anecdotal, I know, but scary nonetheless.
Genesis
Posts: 130779
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
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Oh I know. The point being that all indications are that the label and similar data is the BEST CASE, which is why I also ran with 99% surveillance accuracy (ridiculous and never-achieved) as well.

Even so we wind up with FIVE RAGE MONSTERS A DAY

That's the price. We either accept it or we change things.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Lowbeyond
Posts: 16930
Incept: 2008-02-11
Green A True American Patriot!
CO aka West NJ/East CA
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who cares is suicide goes up. its your life, if you wish to end it, so what. have at it.

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Maybe it was a birdy bread-bomber from the future?!
Andysvw
Posts: 1752
Incept: 2010-06-26
Green
Tujunga Ca
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Its good cops dont take those drugs?
Winstonsmith2009
Posts: 1060
Incept: 2009-08-05

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Require a test for this before antidepressants are prescribed:

If You Have These Genes, This Popular Drug Can Trigger Impulsive Violence
January 07, 2012

More than a decade ago, Dr. Yolande Lucire started noticing high rates of hospital admission and suicide among patients treated with antidepressant medications and antipsychotics.

Since then, she has gathered evidence that makes it clear that many people being treated with antidepressants can't metabolize them due to common genetic mutations.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articl....

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I strongly suggest that every one of the recent rage killers and any others who are dead but could still have viable DNA be tested for this.

Reason: Added test suggestion
Lostinspace
Posts: 133
Incept: 2009-05-06
Green
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My sister's neighbor's husband was depressed for whatever reason. Doctor put him on an anti-depressant. It wasn't working so the doctor switched him to another one. After a couple of weeks being on the new drug, on the way to work one day, he stopped at a bridge and jumped off. His wife said in the 25 years or so they were married, he never talked about wanting to kill himself. The morning he killed himself, she said he was in a decent mood.

I hear these stories much too frequently.

When I was in graduate school, I was very stressed. A friend suggested I go talk to the college psychiatrist. He talked to me for one hour and gave me a Rx for an anti-depressant. I threw it away and took up running to help with stress. Never looked back. Doctors are much too quick to write a prescription. Never gave me suggestions on how to reduce stress, just pulled out the pad.

Reason: missing words
Noodleman
Posts: 2393
Incept: 2008-11-01

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Ya know, something else that is really out of the hands of these medical professionals is their patients mixing AD's with booze or illicit drugs. That is like grabbing ahold of a rattlesnake by it's tail. Once they start doing that (and a good number of them do) all bets are off. Some become walking time bombs. Brain chemistry is very delicate. Mix the wrong crap together that crosses the brain-blood barrier and you explode.

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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935

Analog
Posts: 543
Incept: 2010-12-29
Gold
arkansas ozarks
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Thanks Karl this meshes perfectly with some of my family experience and explains a few things.

You've made it screamingly obvious.

I trust it's been forwarded to Wayne LaPierre ?

CC Michelle, too.


Alas, remember "Lord of the Flies" and Simon.

a



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