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| Why The Libertarian Position On Health Care Works in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Ichirovader
Posts: 25
Incept: 2010-08-11
Port Orchard, WA
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There is no way this ends well.
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Poodlelover
Posts: 147
Incept: 2012-02-02
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She in particular CAN afford $1000. Is a quarter of her paycheck too much to ask if she otherwise has major health problems and this gives her access to some of the best medical care in the world?
Is it really a bad thing if a severely sick person is spending almost as much on health care as rent? I don't think so, where else is her paycheck going?
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Jinxx0r
Posts: 4233
Incept: 2007-08-10
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Quote:So in other words for $3,600 a year, which she can afford, she can insure against the cancer coming back or the heart condition threatening to kill her.
But she wants someone else to cover her office visits and prescriptions. The problem is that the cost shifting is killing peoples ability to pay out of pocket for services. That still must be fixed to make this viable or the cost shifting will continue to make this impossible. You have touched on this many times in the past. It's like I go to get my oil changed and it's $250 dollars, but the guy who is broke pays nothing to have it done because it's rolled into my ability to pay. I agree with the premise of your ticker though. Insurance should be about covering the catastrophe (and that catastrophe not bankrupting you). It shouldn't be about sniffle care... (as long as the sniffle care isn't fraudulently inflated).
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Jinxx0r
Posts: 4233
Incept: 2007-08-10
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Quote:She in particular CAN afford $1000. Is a quarter of her paycheck too much to ask if she otherwise has major health problems and this gives her access to some of the best medical care in the world?
Is it really a bad thing if a severely sick person is spending almost as much on health care as rent? I don't think so, where else is her paycheck going? That depends. If she's being ripped off on the cost of that care, via the policy, then no. The $1000 premium is NOT just paying for her. It's paying for others too. What is the true cost of her care? That's the question. Yes, she should pay for her own care, but what is that true cost to her?
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Poodlelover
Posts: 147
Incept: 2012-02-02
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"That depends. If she's being ripped off on the cost of that care, via the policy, then no. The $1000 premium is NOT just paying for her. It's paying for others too. What is the true cost of her care? That's the question. Yes, she should pay for her own care, but what is that true cost to her?"
Agree, it's salt on a wound for a person to pay not for the actual service but also the cost-shift. Unfortunately, it really has to happen in some capacity for the provider (hospital) to make money, pay salaries, etc.
Unless you're paying up front, in which case there's no need for cost-shifting because the provider knows you can pay, they are extending credit. And since many (most?) won't pay that back on large bills, it carries an absurd premium like lending to any sub-prime borrower.
And the reason the hospital extends that credit is because they legally have to for, say, emergency procedures.
This all leads inexorably to the final conclusion that if A) providers are legally compelled to offer certain services regardless of ability to pay that B) they need to cost-shift OR have this money guaranteed in some other form--such as government health care.
I believe a one-pay system is absolutely inevitable, though this transition period is sure dragging out.
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Tm22721
Posts: 976
Incept: 2008-01-09
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My understanding is that screening by catastrophic providers is stricter than others.
Where exactly can you get catastrophic coverage with her pre-existing conditions ?
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The country is terminally ill and IT JUST WANTS A PILL.
The only way up is down.
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Mpilar
Posts: 5613
Incept: 2009-01-05
Nashville, TN
Online
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Quote:And the reason the hospital extends that credit is because they legally have to for, say, emergency procedures. And that's part of the problem isn't it? That legal requirement to provide a service, regardless of whether or not they'll get paid, makes them slaves...it's only natural for them to make others pay for it. Get rid of that blatantly unconstitutional requirement, and the pieces start to fall back into place.
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Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. H. L. Mencken
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Michelj
Posts: 26
Incept: 2009-12-02
Netherlands
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I've seen a documentary showing big pharma offering 99% reduction offers to retailers and still making money. The true cost of development is imho probably a fraction of what they say they are (or could/should be). Increasing "cost" with purposely expensive procedures and employing many many extremely well payed bureaucrats and what have you scams is easy when you're pulling the strings. How do you distinguish which dollar goes to what. Maybe the dollars from the rest of the world are paying for the development (more than) and the Americans are just plain ripped off.
It's just a remark, I agree with all the rest of the points you make.
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Noodleman
Posts: 2393
Incept: 2008-11-01
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I remember over a decade ago when I had top of the line corporate PPO insurance and needed a simple outpatient surgical procedure that took about 40 minutes in an office setting with local anesthesia. There was a list of approved surgeons within the network. It took me 2 months to see the first available doc and he was the new kid in the practice right out of residency.
At that point - I knew our system was totally broken.
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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935
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Mannfm11
Posts: 3556
Incept: 2009-02-28
DFW, Tx
Online
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ichirovader wrote..There is no way this ends well. One thing for certain, it is going to end. The market will eventually force a change in price.
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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
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Lenguado
Posts: 1272
Incept: 2010-01-12
Orlando, FL
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Noodleman, Quote:top of the line corporate PPO insurance. . . There was a list of approved surgeons within the network Betting you didn't really have a PPO. Not saying you are BSing, but what you describe is middle of the road HMO insurance medical coverage. I currently have "top of the line corporate PPO insurance". Ain't no list of "approved surgeons" - and ain't no "network". Get seen almost immediately. Only issue is when the provider doesn't accept the particular insurance company, but that isn't a "network" thing. Guessing that you either were sold a 'bill of goods' (labeled as a PPO, but really a HMO) - or you are mis-remembering.
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I just realized... they aren't saying, "Keynesian Economics" they're saying "Kenyansian Economics". Grass Huts for everyone! Welcome to history’s first Double Dip Depression
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Anti
Posts: 4300
Incept: 2007-10-09
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Corporate insurance has deteriorated markedly over the past 30 years. Back in the day, it was a fringe benefit to attract and retain valuable workers, then it became a cost and the workers - well they were expendable. Work harder peon! There is an H1B waiting in the wings to take your place buddy, or we maybe can send your job overseas.
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Health is better than health insurance http://gerson.org/ Over the past 60 years, thousands of people have used the Gerson Therapy to recover from so-called “incurable” diseases such as cancer, diabetes, heart disease and arthritis.
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Phxkevin
Posts: 353
Incept: 2010-06-25
Phoenix Arizona
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I have trouble supporting the unsupportable. But I'm also conflicted. I can't imagine the third world situation where you have to step over the sick and dying in the street. Will charity hospitals really step up to the plate? My perception is that today's charity hospitals survive off cost shifting and government support. The current healthcare model is not sustainable, and the proposed changes (e.g. Obamacare) are not going to solve the problem of cost and cost shifting.
Whatever the end result (such as single payer) we have to remove the waste and abuse from all parties. Plus fix the "end of life" practice where a large percentage of lifetime medical cost is spent in the last few months of life.
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Congress persons are all the same, republican or democrat, conservative or liberal. They talk a good game, but the results (or lack thereof) show something different.
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Mrbill
Posts: 7857
Incept: 2008-10-19
North Carolina
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True charity hospitals would not survive today. The problem is that you can only provide healthcare with government support, because the cost is so high due to government intervention.
You must weed the garden before you could possibly grow a flower.
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Jstanley01
Posts: 8182
Incept: 2008-07-30
San Antonio, Texas
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Phxkevin wrote..I can't imagine the third world situation where you have to step over the sick and dying in the street. Is that what occurred here for the 150 years before the Nanny State stepped in? NO. Get a clue, people. And the first step is admitting that you've been bamboozled.
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You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum
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Johnpuma
Posts: 4
Incept: 2012-06-13
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From the article: "Billing someone in this country at 10 times or even more the rate that someone else with the exact same ailment or symptoms is billed can only happen where government makes legal the abuse of customers."
Is there a specific provision of ObamNey Care that "makes legal the abuse of customers"? An other identifiable section of existing health insurance law?
If government did act effectively to make illegal the abuse of customers I do not think the national collective eardrum would survive the roar of those howling about the concomitant "abuse of the the job creators." And I suspect much of the outcry would be from Libertarians.
Then: "So in other words for $3,600 a year, which she can afford, she can insure against the cancer coming back or the heart condition threatening to kill her."
This is simply not true. The $3,600 a year will pay, by definition, only for dealing with the catastrophes of recurrent melanoma or a serious heart incident. It's the coverage for drugs and office visits that MIGHT prevent cancer recurrence or heart failure. BUT that's precisely the coverage that is not affordable.
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"China proves that capitalism neither needs nor guarantees representative government" - yours truly
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Noodleman
Posts: 2393
Incept: 2008-11-01
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"I currently have "top of the line corporate PPO insurance". Ain't no list of "approved surgeons" - and ain't no "network". Get seen almost immediately. Only issue is when the provider doesn't accept the particular insurance company, but that isn't a "network" thing.
Guessing that you either were sold a 'bill of goods' (labeled as a PPO, but really a HMO) - or you are mis-remembering"
Maybe the definition of a PPO has changed in the last 10-15 years, Lenguado. But when I had it the PPO stood for "Preferred Provider Network" which did have a list of network or preferred physicans. The insured could go outside that network if his physician of choice was not on the list - but it would cost an arm and leg to do so. As I said, when I needed a minor surgical procedure I had to wait for 2 months to see a network surgeon (new to the practice) for a 40 minute procedure in his office. That's the truth of the matter.
I believe most HMO require the patient to see one of their docs and most have their own buildings and hospitals (like Kaiser). I was not insured by an HMO. I was told it was a PPO. And by definition - that made sense to me.
Managed care has made medical care a complicated mess. One almost has to be an medical actuary to understand all the terms and the various charged attached to each plan. I know from experience that it's hard to keep all the terms and all the different options/requirements straight.
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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935
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Morla
Posts: 817
Incept: 2009-11-09
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Quote:Is there a specific provision of ObamNey Care that "makes legal the abuse of customers"? That's already legal now. Health corps are allowed to perform outright collusion that would be trouble in any other industry.
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Fear of govt IS the government.. Statism is a pack of unbacked threats; If govt gets out of control, ignore it and go about life as you see fit. Where's your crown, King Nothing?
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