More Social Diversions: A Libertarian View
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-05-09 15:51
by Karl Denninger
in Social Issues
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More Social Diversions: A Libertarian View
 

Please, make the stupid stop!

President Barack Obama said same-sex couples should be allowed to marry, the first time he’s declared support for making gay marriage legal.

Obama’s remarks, made in an interview with ABC News, go a step beyond his previous stance on the issue, which was that his initial opposition to same-sex marriage was “evolving.”

The president said that his position has changed as he’s seen same-sex couples in long-term relationships and gays serving in the military.

Why is the government involved in any way, shape or form regarding your personal, private and adult living relationships?

Where can you find in the Constitution the authority of the Federal Government to "make legal" (or illegal) any such arrangement?  The 10th Amendment says if it's not explicitly in The Constitution it's none of the government's damn business.

More to the point, how can you possibly square any such position for or against any particular combination of family in the context of a word that is inherently religious in origin and meaning with The Establishment Clause?

You can't.  But you sure can pander, and boy oh boy do we do a lot of that in politics.  Obama now joins Gary Johnson who has also been trumpeting this as "an issue", and both are doing so in a means that simply applies more statism and more unconstitutional intrusion into your life and, in this case, bedroom than there is any justification for.

There is no justification for any such law -- for or against.  I remind everyone that the original intent of "marriage laws" was institutional racism -- bigotry. 

That's right -- the original laws were passed, right around 1700 in America, to prevent miscegenation -- the intermarriage of white people with other races, in this case blacks and Indians (Native Americans if you prefer.)

Yeah.

So we have laws that were flatly unconstitutional in their first instance but which pre-dated the Constitution.  Indeed, Constitutional Amendments were actually proposed to enact miscegenation as federal policy on multiple occasions (at least three that I know of.)  The laws on miscegenation were slowly struck after the Civil War but were not ruled unconstitutional until 1967 in Loving v. Virginia.  Nonetheless it was not until 2001 that the last of them was actually repealed.

But the bigotry doesn't end there.  Several States, including Florida, currently criminalize two people of the opposite sex cohabitating.  Note that Obama says nothing about this even though a gay couple can live openly in Florida without violating the law as the Florida Statute specifically says "man and woman."

The State has no business being involved in this whatsoever.  There is no legitimate argument for special privileges or penalties associated with one's living arrangement so long as the participants are all consenting adults.  And there are penalties -- try being married with two incomes and you'll find out exactly how that works come tax time.

I'll be interested in applauding more statist behavior when someone can show me where in the Constitution it is authorized for the Federal Government to pass a law dealing with how two or more adults choose to live in the privacy of their own home.  There is exactly one legitimate role for government in this regard, and that is to provide a venue in which voluntarily entered-into contracts can be enforced if necessary (commonly called a civil courtroom.)

If you want to create a contract for your living arrangement, have at it.

If you want to get married, go see a Priest.

And if you don't like this reality in the context of The Constitution, including The Establishment Clause, then pass an amendment under the lawful procedures to do so that confers upon the Federal Government the right to intrude into your bedroom and tell you whether your living arrangement is "lawful" or not.

Until then it's none of the Federal Government's damn business, whether you're gay, straight, white, black, brown or Martian and I for one am tired of the pandering incessantly displayed by politicians that are in fact nothing more than application of yet another boot to the neck of the people.

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Flaps10
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Quote:
The 10th Amendment says if it's not explicitly in The Constitution it's none of the government's damn business.


All that needs to be said.

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Digitlman
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Having just voted yesterday to oppose the constitutional amendment to the North Carolina state constitution in changing the definition of marriage to "one man and one woman", I think BO is just out trying to get NC voters. We were a key state for him last time.

Same ****; different election cycle.
Mdm
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Agreed. This is completely a state issue (if it is even a governmental issue at all). The laws of marriage between a man and a woman aren't even the same state to state. Some states recognize common law marriage while others don't (Florida does not). Therefore, you would have a situation where someone can be legally married in one state and then legally not married once they cross state lines. Where are the common law spouses demanding Federal protection?
Jstanley01
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I think you should leave the politicos alone on this one.

After all, according to the sensors that they have attached to the bodies of numerous representative samples of likely voters of both sexes of all genders, arguments about gay marriage produce a tingling sensation in a parts of the body that show positive correlation with "pulling the lever" for the candidate that stimulates them most often.

I mean, after all, knowing what "turns Americans on." That's the most important leadership trait possible that we want our nation's leaders to have. Right? Of course!

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You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum

Nuke_engineer
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It was an amazing sight in NC yesterday. Ignorance in action. I took part of the day off, got some popcorn and a soda, and sat in an easy chair next to the polling station to watch all the evangelicals and LGBTers duke it out looking for voters.

Watching the actions of the evangelicals truly tested in my mind what it means to be a Christian. In the eyes of many, it's just plain violence, hatred and bigotry, just like the money changers in the temple that Jesus went to. On the other hand the LGBTers weren't exactly civil as well.

It was all an argument based on some narrowly chosen words in a text edited by some old men in Nicaea long ago of which we have no proof that even Jesus and God said those words, if they did at all.

If we could only harness the energy of these sheep against the banksters and the debt WMD, we'd be home free of economic worries!

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Trading and investing is understanding about people, emotions and corruption of government, corporations, banks and people using propaganda, lies, mathematics and bankster logic working against you.

Lowbeyond
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People like to go on bended knee to the state and buy worthless pieces of paper.

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Maybe it was a birdy bread-bomber from the future?!
Eaglewwit
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Being married cost money. You pay more in taxes if you both work, which is generally the case nowadays. I would think that the government would want the extra tax money.
Ck_dexter
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What benefits does being married get you? I am trying to understand all facets of the arguments.

Easier access to health bebenfits? Other insurance factors? When a gay person says they want the same things as a stright person, i want to understand what that means. Right now I am not sure I do.

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"In other words, that the discussion about what is good, what is beautiful, what is noble, what is pure and what is true, could always go on. Why is that important, why would I like to do that? Because that's the only conversation worth having." Christopher Hitchens.
Jstanley01
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Ck_dexter wrote..
What benefits does being married get you? I am trying to understand all facets of the arguments.
Well for one thing, you can Fornicate Under the Consent of the King... smiley

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You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum
Bertdilbert
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They should make gay marriage legal and end it as an argument. Arguing about gay marriage is noting but another diversion that takes away from real issues.

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Political Capital Defined: We are out of money but will tax our citizens for whatever it takes to "SAVE" the Euro.
Ck_dexter
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I googled "Why do I need a marraige license" and found this.

*********************
Here are some of the legal rights that married couples have and gays and lesbians are denied:

1. Joint parental rights of children
2. Joint adoption
3. Status as "next-of-kin" for hospital visits and medical decisions
4. Right to make a decision about the disposal of loved ones remains
5. Immigration and residency for partners from other countries
6. Crime victims recovery benefits
7. Domestic violence protection orders
8. Judicial protections and immunity
9. Automatic inheritance in the absence of a will
10. Public safety officers death benefits
11. Spousal veterans benefits
12. Social Security
13. Medicare
14. Joint filing of tax returns
15. Wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children
16. Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children
17. Child support
18. Joint Insurance Plans
19. Tax credits including: Child tax credit, Hope and lifetime learning credits
20. Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs
21. Estate and gift tax benefits
22. Welfare and public assistance
23. Joint housing for elderly
24. Credit protection
25. Medical care for survivors and dependents of certain veterans


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"In other words, that the discussion about what is good, what is beautiful, what is noble, what is pure and what is true, could always go on. Why is that important, why would I like to do that? Because that's the only conversation worth having." Christopher Hitchens.
Jack_crabb
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Quote:
They should make gay marriage legal and end it as an argument.


WTF are you talking about, Bert? Try reading Karl's post again - this time for comprehension.

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Molon Labe

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Genesis
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CK_Dexter wrote..

I googled "Why do I need a marraige license" and found this.

*********************
Here are some of the legal rights that married couples have and gays and lesbians are denied:


Not only are some of those false (domestic violence protective orders in particular) but this is exactly the sort of bull**** "special privilege" that the government has no right to give in the first place.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Bertdilbert
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Quote:
WTF are you talking about, Bert? Try reading Karl's post again - this time for comprehension.


I offered my opinion on the matter. I don't have to read Karl's post for comprehension in order for me to offer my opinion. If you would wish to elaborate on your position, have at it.

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Dear Euroland: Relax, Germany has a plan for your money!

Political Capital Defined: We are out of money but will tax our citizens for whatever it takes to "SAVE" the Euro.
Dashingdwl
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Why is the government involved? Because liberals/progressives love inviting the government into their life. It's part of why liberals/progressives are ****ed up.

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When you are hard and disciplined, you can be principled. People fear you because they have no leverage against you. It's the truest form of Liberty.
Phxkevin
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Dashingdwl said "Why is the government involved? Because liberals/progressives love inviting the government into their life. It's part of why liberals/progressives are ****ed up."

Not true, the so called conservatives are more interested in bedroom issues (Bachman, Santorum etc.)

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Congress persons are all the same, republican or democrat, conservative or liberal. They talk a good game, but the results (or lack thereof) show something different.
Ck_dexter
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Genesis wrote..
this is exactly the sort of bull**** "special privilege" that the government has no right to give in the first place.


Totally agree, just want to make sure I have my facts straight.

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"In other words, that the discussion about what is good, what is beautiful, what is noble, what is pure and what is true, could always go on. Why is that important, why would I like to do that? Because that's the only conversation worth having." Christopher Hitchens.
Genesis
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Then stop spouting the talking points of those who are intentionally distorting the facts. I'll only ask once.

(Incidentally, there is nothing whatsoever preventing anyone from designating anyone they choose to have medical powers of attorney and similar, and such planning is both legally superior and provides FAR MORE choice than the so-called "defaults." Consider that those "legal rights" are NOT always desirable -- they can in fact be serious liabilities under certain circumstances as they GIVE rights away you might rather retain!)

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?

Geschrei
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Ck_dexter wrote..

1. Joint parental rights of children
2. Joint adoption
3. Status as "next-of-kin" for hospital visits and medical decisions
4. Right to make a decision about the disposal of loved ones remains
5. Immigration and residency for partners from other countries
6. Crime victims recovery benefits
7. Domestic violence protection orders
8. Judicial protections and immunity
9. Automatic inheritance in the absence of a will
10. Public safety officers death benefits
11. Spousal veterans benefits
12. Social Security
13. Medicare
14. Joint filing of tax returns
15. Wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children
16. Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children
17. Child support
18. Joint Insurance Plans
19. Tax credits including: Child tax credit, Hope and lifetime learning credits
20. Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs
21. Estate and gift tax benefits
22. Welfare and public assistance
23. Joint housing for elderly
24. Credit protection
25. Medical care for survivors and dependents of certain veterans



With just a cursory glance, I'd say most (not all, but most) of those 25 points could be addressed with a legally binding contractual agreement of some sort.

I think the REAL motivation for same-sex recognition are these:

6. Crime victims recovery benefits
9. Automatic inheritance in the absence of a will
10. Public safety officers death benefits
11. Spousal veterans benefits
12. Social Security
13. Medicare
14. Joint filing of tax returns
15. Wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children
16. Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children
17. Child support
18. Joint Insurance Plans
19. Tax credits including: Child tax credit, Hope and lifetime learning credits
20. Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs
21. Estate and gift tax benefits
22. Welfare and public assistance
23. Joint housing for elderly
24. Credit protection
25. Medical care for survivors and dependents of certain veterans

It's not about love, it's about $$$$$$$.

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“The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern.”

Lord Acton (1834 - 1902)
Dakine2004
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Always say I want to marry my cat...vets are expensive..
Xqqme
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Get the State out of the Holy Sacrament (Matrimony) business. Make all 'Unions' official with a contract.
Gay Marriage has never been about 'Equal Protection under the Law'.
Geschrei
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Dakine2004 wrote..
Always say I want to marry my cat...vets are expensive..
Try being married to a vet...talk about expensive... smiley

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“The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern.”

Lord Acton (1834 - 1902)
Jack_crabb
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Fair enough, Bertdilbert. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I am not going to elaborate my position because Karl stated it perfectly, with plenty of substantiation:

Quote:
it's none of the Federal Government's damn business, whether you're gay, straight, white, black, brown or Martian and I for one am tired of the pandering incessantly displayed by politicians that are in fact nothing more than application of yet another boot to the neck of the people.

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Molon Labe

Where is Henry Bowman when you need him?
Phxkevin
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@ Xqqme
I'll bite, what is gay marriage about?

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Congress persons are all the same, republican or democrat, conservative or liberal. They talk a good game, but the results (or lack thereof) show something different.
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