Hard to have pity/empathy for folks taking on debt, either Student, Car Loan, Two Mortgage Carnies, etc...

Always someone else's fault...

Remember putting off until you can afford? Saving for a TV! ...

(Back to walking up hill, both ways, in the snow, etc.)...

Trades: yep. In my case, the 3 of us are a computer programmer, an aircraft mechanic, and a financial analyst. It takes quite a few fry cooks, starbucks baristas, or Wal-mart greeters to replace people with our sorts of skills in the tax base.

I'm planning on leaving the US. Why? Because I'm not a slave.

Trades50 -

Although it's relatively easy to leave the country, the gov't has for years been making it more and more difficult for expats to escape the clutches of the IRS. Not that it will prevent the economy from imploding, but I expect it's an attempt by TPTB here to keep the game going for a little bit longer.

Peter: Once you resign yourself to the fact that you may need to give up US citizenship, things get a lot easier. Hopefully it won't come to that, but I have mentally accepted the possibility of needing to do so.

The group offering these liar loans must be related to the
crooks offering the real estate liar loans...
I don't blame the young'uns deciding the other side of the
fence is looking better than the sickly USofA.
Before it's over with though, even the bus driver of this bus
we're all riding is going to be thrown under the bus by the
already flattened out exriders.

Most of these loans cannot be repaid, therefore they will not be repaid. Look for the next huge bailout to be for student loans.

I'm betting a lot more people would be able to afford their student loan payments if they weren't so concerned with having the latest iGadget or smartphone, or living life outside their means.

Student loans have certain advantages and disadvantages compared to other forms of debt. How many other loans/debts allow you to overpay and push the due-date back for each month's worth of overpayments? If you can afford to do that, take advantage of it...this allows you to build up a nice reserve in case of emergency.

Ramthebulls -

I agree that helps, but it's not a total solution.

US State Department wrote..

. . . persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information). In addition, the act of renouncing U.S. citizenship will not allow persons to . . . escape the repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States or incurred as United States citizens abroad.

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/....

That may be what they tell you but the fact remains that jurisdiction still matters and many nations will not extradite for or honor tax demands for THEIR citizens.

So the IRS can certainly attach anything that's in the US, but if it's beyond the boundaries of the US that's tough **** for them if they can't get your "new" nation to agree with them.

Of course this means you can never come back as if you set foot in the country you might well be instantly arrested.

Multiple thoughts/experiences tied to this ticker:

• I have a 16 year old daughter. We visited Salisbury State U in Maryland a couple weeks ago for their open house. The website lists a total cost of $15-16K per year, but they said verbally that it's more like $20K when you add in incidentals, this and that, etc. $4,000 for "incidentals"????
  
• One parent asked about the graduation rate and the response was something like 82% (? - could have been a little higher or lower) after SIX YEARS!!! I like to think that's because the kids are smart enough to drop out for a year or two to work to earn money so they don't need to take out loans. Yes, that's what I LIKE to think, but I know from talking to other students and parents that a lot of schools manipulate it to almost force kids to stay for at least 5 years because of the way the courses required for the major are scheduled.
  
• I have not saved enough to pay cash for her education. She will NOT take out loans for this education, so she needs to work to earn some of the money, apply for EVERY scholarship around, maybe drop out for a year or two and live at home to make money to help pay for it (although I really want her to go away for at least one year to cut the apron strings - I'll admit to coddling and spoiling her more than I should), etc. Even if I HAD save enough money to pay for this, I'm not sure I'm willing to do so.
  
• I will fill out the FAFSA form to see if they give her grants, work-study, and because some scholarships want it, although our income is probably too high for most of those. I have been told that we do not need to take out the loans even if they are offered and I will not do so and neither will she.
  
• I've told her that there will be no loans for this and I'm going to use some of the figures in this report to explain why to her in more specific terms. She knows that debt isn't good and that it will greatly impact her lifestyle as an adult; thank God her brain is logically oriented and she understands math!
  
• The college counselor at the high school has repeatedly said that loans are one way to pay for school and should be used if needed - another pusher! She advises that students talk to the school admissions office while the parents talk to the financial aid office whenever they make a school visit. I can't wait to ask the college counselors how my child is going to pay these loans when she graduates!
  
  Flaps, perhaps your son should tell them that he's dropping out for a year or two to make some money to pay for his education; maybe that would change their minds on the pullback of his assistance. If it doesn't maybe he'll find he can work and go to school and, if he's lucky, have his employer pay for part of his education. It's how I financed most of mine.
  
  Rams, if/when I retire (and on days like today, it better be WHEN), I think I will become an expat as well. I don't expect to get SS or Medicare, even at my age, so no loss there. Without it, my income will be a lot less with a lot less to tax! Lord knows what the rates will be in 8 years, though!

Quote:

universities should be required to post statistical information about recent graduates, that is, how much they earn on average for a given major, how many got jobs in their field of study, how many are unemployed etc.

I understand your point. But it wouldn't matter. In the current environment they'd just make something up.

Where there is an intent to defraud, all the laws & rules in the world are worthless.

They CURRENTLY make something up.

They've been doing THAT for at least 20 years and have NEVER been held accountable for it.

Yeah, at the moment, if you emigrate with less than $2M of assets, you avoid the US exit tax, and you only have to file with the IRS for a couple years after you renounce.

Still a pain in the ass, but much less so than being stuck under US tax jurisdiction forever.

Flaps,

I'm sure you are aware ... but the REAL expense your son will incur will occur AFTER the BS. Graduate School, etc. That is where they literally destroy these kids ... even the "smart" ones that navigated through the BS w/ little debt. The demands of graduate school in the real sciences are such that, for a single person, massive loads of debt are all but required.

Thank God I was married and my Wife worked. It was a great time for us.

Where are you going to go? Every developed nation I'm aware of has unsustainable debt. Are other tax jurisdictions any better?

Quote:

After all, how many college students would you have on your campus if you fairly and fully disclosed the likely earnings (not the "best possible outcome") for a given major and degree and then amortized out the cost of that education and, along with the expected tax burden on that graduate, showed them exactly how much they'd have left to live on?

Do you know of any tools available online for this? I feel like there should be and if not it wouldn't be that hard to develop.

Guess that's what happens when your priority is teaching "Jimmy has two moms" instead of math.

Higher Education - you know an industry sucks when you can't even figure out who the customer is. Is it the banks, the university, the unions, the teachers, politicians, the football coach or the actual students.

Me personally? Chile. Debt is 9% of GDP, and they have a budget surplus. Taxes are very reasonable.

If I were a 20-something, I'd leave too.

Godspeed to those that do.

This would ALL BE FINE if the debt was dischargeable and the govt stopped backstopping lenders. Capitalism is the only cure for bubble disease.

Widgeon, Gen -

Unfortunately you are right and they do/will fudge the statistics. The statistics that I see now is based on "voluntary responses of graduates" which means that a lot of graduates who were not successful are probably not replying.

Another interesting piece of data:

"A recent Rutgers University survey of 571 Americans who graduated from college between 2006 and 2010 found that only 53% held full-time jobs".

Rugged Individualism doesn't apply anymore after you get rich. Only need to pull up the bootstraps until you net worth hits about $5M. Then you deserve a bailout.

Quote:

Chile. Debt is 9% of GDP, and they have a budget surplus. Taxes are very reasonable.

Can't argue with that.

Quote:

That is where they literally destroy these kids ... even the "smart" ones that navigated through the BS w/ little debt.

The smart ones get jobs with companies who have a tuition payment benefit option.

Quote:

Do you know of any tools available online for this? I feel like there should be and if not it wouldn't be that hard to develop.

If you are looking for loan amortization tables, you can find those at Bankrate.com (google "bankrate student loan calculator"). It also allows you mess with the numbers -- adding extra monthly/yearly/one-time payments, etc.

Quote:

Unfortunately you are right and they do/will fudge the statistics. The statistics that I see now is based on "voluntary responses of graduates" which means that a lot of graduates who were not successful are probably not replying.

I don't reply for the opposite reason. It isn't their business how much I make, especially if I'm successful. I get enough solicitations for donations to my university as it is, I don't want any more.


Oh and to be 100% honest, I think it is pretty damn pathetic to see all these "I'm leaving the US" and "I would leave too" posts. Seriously? You would leave your country because of something silly like this?