| User Info
| ISDA: All Your Bonds Are Belong To Us in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Rdaniels
Posts: 444
Incept: 2007-11-30
Purgatory
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Credit Default Swaps are nothing but a scam for banks and finanical institutions to move assets off balance sheet so minimum capital requirements can be exceeded.
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I wouldn't be so pessimistic if it wasn't so hopeless.
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Eighty6thebs
Posts: 4183
Incept: 2007-06-26
It's contained to sub-prime!
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You'd think that would hurt future sales of this product lol
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"Sounds to me like you guys a couple of bookies" - Billy Ray Valentine
"No I am not scared, and neither should you be!" - Iraqi Information Minister
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Otiswild
Posts: 5620
Incept: 2009-03-09
Inside you, the force is!
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I'm shocked, shocked!
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Crzymorse
Posts: 1191
Incept: 2010-06-25
Maryland
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Nothing about Greeces bond prices would indicate a pending credit event. Yeah and I need to find a virgin to lure in the unicorn thats running around the state park near my house.
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Zarathustra
Posts: 5960
Incept: 2009-04-29
Funkytown
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Greek 1-year above 920%
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"And in knowing that you know nothing, that makes you the smartest of all." - Socrates
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Andyc
Posts: 333
Incept: 2010-10-24
Banned
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CDS are just an elaborate shell game of self dealing between the banks and connected people, hedge funds. I mean just studying a few of the terms and you can see it for the fraud that it is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_defa.... The buyer of a CDS does not need to own the underlying security or other form of credit exposure; in fact the buyer does not even have to suffer a loss from the default event.[18][19][20][21] In contrast, to purchase insurance, the insured is generally expected to have an insurable interest such as owning a debt obligation; the seller doesn't have to be a regulated entity; the seller is not required to maintain any reserves to pay off buyers, although major CDS dealers are subject to bank capital requirements; insurers manage risk primarily by setting loss reserves based on the Law of large numbers, while dealers in CDS manage risk primarily by means of offsetting CDS (hedging) with other dealers and transactions in underlying bond markets; in the United States CDS contracts are generally subject to mark-to-market accounting, introducing income statement and balance sheet volatility that would not be present in an insurance contract; Hedge accounting may not be available under US Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP) unless the requirements of FAS 133 are met. In practice this rarely happens. Hey lets all hang out a shingle..."CDS R Us"...I'm sure we would all be happy to sell billions of this junk seeing as we NEVER will have to pay off on them and why shouldn't we be able to do this if we dont have to be a regulated entity.....Free money. Personally I will be happy to sell any banker or hedge fund CDS on practically any sovereign debt...just contact me through Karl....I'll fix ya right up! : ) In other market comedy........there's this. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bonus-with...."He reads other supermarket circulars to find good prices for his favorite cereal, Wheat Chex." That quote cracked me up
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Ktrosper
Posts: 1500
Incept: 2010-04-06
ft collins co
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Gen wrote..Yeah, you'd be inclined to buy insurance again after that..... Yep, in doin this, they are destroying the value and credibility (whatever value/cred there was left anyway) in these CDS instruments. This is good, now it should be apparent to everyone that this is just one big circle-jerk scam. Gen wrote..When the risk is too expensive to actually insure a "side letter" is used to scam the regulator into believing that a hazard is covered... Hmm.. I get the "side letter" scam, but it seems to me that these risks were and have been OVER-insured.. I've read here and elsewhere that insurance was taken on risks up to 10 times over. To me, that explains the reluctance to declare an actual "default" event. Every default would be magnified by 4, 5, 6, 10X because they've been insured multiple times. Instant Insurance Company (Bank) detonation, right????
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The unexamined life is not worth living.-Socrates The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law.-Aristotle Liberty exists now in the spaces government has not yet chosen to occupy.-Doc Zero I anticipate that 10 Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders will blow me this evening.-K.D
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Jubber
Posts: 14078
Incept: 2007-07-05
UK
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So ISDA come out with this **** and BTP goes to a record high! don't get it
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“The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people’s money.” Thatcher
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Ktrosper
Posts: 1500
Incept: 2010-04-06
ft collins co
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Andyc,
Good info..
It's painfully obvious to me that if you don't require an "insurable interest" and allow a risk to be insured multiple times over you're guaranteed a front row seat as the shining star goes super-nova ;)
Talk about moral hazard!
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The unexamined life is not worth living.-Socrates The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law.-Aristotle Liberty exists now in the spaces government has not yet chosen to occupy.-Doc Zero I anticipate that 10 Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders will blow me this evening.-K.D
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Anti
Posts: 4293
Incept: 2007-10-09
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Andyc - that article is great, thanks. Oh the pain for the banksters!
It's a little late coming for them - if it is not all an election year show - "Oh look we're hurting too, bonuses are down".
Jump you ****ers.
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Health is better than health insurance http://gerson.org/ Over the past 60 years, thousands of people have used the Gerson Therapy to recover from so-called “incurable” diseases such as cancer, diabetes, heart disease and arthritis.
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Aztrader
Posts: 6649
Incept: 2007-09-10
Scottsdale, AZ
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Rules, laws, enforcement? Are you crazy? If the rule of law were followed, the market would crash and the banksters would lose their bonuses.......
Every one of these banks are walking on a tight rope. They don't value the derivatives on their balance sheets and trade them thru shadow exchanges. This is about as close to the MOB running things as we have seen in history.
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Mikeri
Posts: 270
Incept: 2007-10-04
Natchez, MS
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Federal District Court...South Mississipp...ruling on wind/water damage after Katrina. When 1 house blows down...payment; when 2000 blow down......wind, what wind? It was water. No coverage.
No controlling moral authority. Banana republic.
word was, the Judge was told there would never again be house insurance on the MS gulf coast if he found WIND.
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Nelstomlinson
Posts: 124
Incept: 2011-12-21
Juneau Alaska
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If this action doesn't bring the demand for CDS to near zero, I will guess that the buyers never intended to collect - that it was all just a side-letter-style scam.
If the regulators continue to fall for the scam after this, it will be pretty hard for anyone to believe that ``regulation'' means what they want us to believe it means.
The fraud is getting pretty blatant.
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Mannfm11
Posts: 3544
Incept: 2009-02-28
DFW, Tx
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How were any of the CDS's on subprime defaults? There never was an offical default on any of it, merely a decline in value. If 75% isn't a decline in value, one that is never coming back, what the **** is it? These guys did nothing but get together and make AIG a money pit. There wasn't a default to pay, just a decline in value. Greece isn't paying 75% of the value of their bonds. This is an out in the open default. There isn't anything going to come back. This is like there being 10 people playing blackjack. When the dealer gets 21, the people get to keep their money, when the dealer wins or the player busts, they still get to keep their money and they get paid by the dealer.
These guys are playing a game where the rules are rigged 100% in their favor and if that isn't good enough, then they are given more money. There is no CDS market. There is only a CDS market when these MOTHER****RS are on the receiving end. THERE IS NO CDS MARKET. EVERYTHING WE BUY FROM THESE BASTARDS ARE TAINTED. NYSE, DOW, NASDAQ, US TREASURY BONDS, JUNK BONDS, GOLD, SILVER, CORPORATES, SWAPS, OPTIONS, YOU name it. This situation is worse than the casino, where you do have a chance, if you are really diciplined, to make a few bucks now and then. Dealing with these guys are like dealing with a pit of rattlesnakes (Andrew Jackson called them a den of vipers), where you can't kill or eat the snake. You can only get bit.
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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
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Adrenaline_junky
Posts: 1869
Incept: 2007-09-14
Chicago
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Fine. But since this shows that the CDS is worthless, the default risk should be placed back on the balance sheets. This game of trying to have it both ways is quite irritating. I'd like to have this question put to the appropriate banking and accounting regulators to see how they try to squirm out of this.
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"If Goldman Sachs is doing God's work, they must be referring to the cruel God of the Old Testament who brought forth plagues, floods, and pestilence." - Me
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Genesis
Posts: 130746
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Exactly.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Randy123
Posts: 5785
Incept: 2008-09-24
Earth
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They will have to pay on Greece eventually. Or else the CDS market goes away.
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China is the Enemy. Wake Up.
New Normal. Same As The Old Awful.
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Mannfm11
Posts: 3544
Incept: 2009-02-28
DFW, Tx
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The CDS market has already gone away. There was a trillion on GM, from what I recall. Why wasn't it paid or was it? They wiped the bond holders and the stockholders out. I read years ago from Fitch or S&P or Moody's that the typical recovery from a corporate liquidation at the time was 25%. This is what they are getting out of Greece. This suddenly makes me wonder if these bastards didn't collect from AIG and are still carrying the CDO's on their books at par? When Rick Santelli read the voters on this panel, I about fell out of bed. These ****ers have been given the power to define anything as they want it. These are also the shareholders of the Federal Reserve and most likely the other CB's around the world, which are full of this junk. These bastards are broke. We should make them pay their debts or fold.
Randy, the rate on Greek CDS's are way over 100% annually. By the time they pay, they would have received well over 100% of what they pay out. The premiums should be refunded, as we are dealing with a nudum pactum orito, a contract void due to lack of consideration.
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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
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Jal
Posts: 512
Incept: 2009-03-25
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@ Mannfm11 You would not last one vote as part of the "change the rules committee." 
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Steph4liberty
Posts: 1684
Incept: 2010-10-22
Raleigh, NC
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If you haven't noticed it yet, bankers own the world.
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"Man will never be free until the last Banker is strangled with the entrails of the last Politician" - unknown
"This isn't a market anymore, it's a computer game." - Drench
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Fnamekeith
Posts: 469
Incept: 2008-04-07
Seattle
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Ok - so what does this change? What's tradeable here? Obviously, CDS's are a gigantic scam of whatever variety.
Also, obviously, CDS's are going to be conitnued to be considered valid insurance.
So, all the banks,hedge funds, and etc. who use these to "hedge" their balance sheets have no reason to change their behaviour.
So, what comes out of this? My take is nothing. Even though they're obviously meaningless, the CDS market will continue to operate as it has previously. Enabling absurd amounts of leverage in all those TBTF or politically connected entities involved.
Bottom line, kick the can another few years down the road?
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Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world.
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Morla
Posts: 815
Incept: 2009-11-09
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The collective action clauses can't be ruled on until they're actually used against the holdouts. CDS question still way up in the air.
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Fear of govt IS the government.. Statism is a pack of unbacked threats; If govt gets out of control, ignore it and go about life as you see fit. Where's your crown, King Nothing?
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