The Libertarian Party Opportunity About To Be Lost
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-02-17 14:56
by Karl Denninger
in Politics
Ignore this thread
The Libertarian Party Opportunity About To Be Lost
 

My party is about to blow it again.

In 2008 Bob Barr ran for President.  He was a well-known former federal prosecutor and member of the US House, and was well-known to have strong Libertarian principles.  Among other "bona-fides" he serves on the board of the National Rifle Association.

The Libertarian Party polled under 1% with him on the top of the ticket.

During the rather-infamous toilet bowl protest that FedUp USA and The Market Ticker pulled off during the summer of 2008 in Washington DC the Freedomworks people (of which Dick Armey and Bob Barr claimed affiliation) came out to talk to us.  They were not very interested in the issue of frauds upon the people, which of course was what we were protesting.

It's unfortunate, because this is a winning position, and one that is entirely-consistent with Libertarian principles.

This poor showing at the polls is not an isolated incident. 

The Libertarian party has never materially exceeded 1%; it's highest showing was in 1980 with Ed Clark and David Koch at 1.1% of the vote.  Ron Paul, who I personally voted for in 1988, got 0.5%.  Since 1980 the showing has been between 0.3 and 0.5% every single election cycle; Bob Barr got 523,000 votes for 0.4%.  In every year since 1972, the Libertarian candidate has received zero electoral votes.

The definition of insanity, according to Albert Einstein, is repeating the same acts over and over and expecting different results.

Libertarians have failed because they have refused to take the distinction that we have and turn it to our advantage by appealing to the most-important issue Americans have, which is entirely-possible to do without compromising Libertarian principles one iota.

Let me remind everyone that in order to be a Libertarian one must, in writing, swear or affirm to the following oath:

I do not believe in the initiation of force as a means to achieve social or political goals.

The Libertarian Party stands alone among serious political parties in the requirement of this oath for membership.  You can be a Democrat or Republican while believing that naked aggression is a perfectly-legitimate social and political tactic.

You cannot be a Libertarian under that circumstance.

Fraud, ladies and gentlemen, is the initiation of force.

Consider the bare facts -- fraud is, in the essence, theft.  Theft never happens without the initiation of force of some sort.  If there's no force it's not theft, it's a charitable contribution, otherwise known as a gift.

We cannot win as a party by being, as is often said as a slur, Republicans who like to smoke pot.

Not only is there no evidence that Libertarians are no more or less interested in smoking pot than the rest of the population at large (you'd be shocked at how many people among your acquaintance do smoke every now and again) but we are definitely not Republicans.

Why?

Because we don't believe that there is an inherent right to use force to achieve political or social goals, and both Republicans and Democrats do.

The drug war comes out of this belief by the Republicans and Democrats, just as did the temperance movement in the early 1900s that led to the disaster of prohibition. 

The problem Libertarians have is that historically the party wants to basically run on this as a platform plank.  It's a loser, simply because while plenty of people smoke pot it's not an issue that people will vote on to the exclusion of others.

The party needs that exclusion issue if it is ever to break the 1% barrier.

More to the point, if the party is ever to gain national relevance it must break the 5% barrier, because it is at that point that federal election funds become available, and suddenly the Libertarian Party goes from having almost nothing to having literal millions to spend on a Presidential Campaign.

Fraud is that exclusion issue, and the party can either adopt it now, in this election year, or consign itself to another 40 years of sub-1% performance.

This is an issue on which the Libertarians have no competition. Neither Democrat or Republican candidates will stand up and say "Stop the looting and start prosecuting!" for one simple reason -- both of those parties are beholden to deficit spending. Without the banksters who have committed these frauds over the previous decades there is no bond market open to the major politicians to execute their deficit spending plans, and thus they need to protect Wall Street.

But Libertarians don't believe in big government.  We don't believe in deficit spending.  We don't believe in wars we can't pay for.  We don't believe in handouts, believing that de-consolidation of power is the better path, and that through de-consolidation we pass power back down to the States and The People.  We, among all the political parties, want to return the Federal Government to the boundaries it is supposed to live within as defined by The Constitution.

As a result we do not need to protect those have committed and continue to commit fraud.

Now consider this: Five million homes have been lost to foreclosure since 2006, and that's just completed foreclosures!  Estimates are that one million more will be completed in 2012.

What percentage of those have some element of fraud in the process?

Most of them.  That's right, most of them.  The frauds include:

  • Fraudulent origination of loans.  80% of one major bank's production of loans in 2007 was known by the bank to not meet its own quality guidelines, yet they sold those loans on anyway.  These are houses that people could not have bought, and thus could not be foreclosed out of losing everything they had paid in, but for the fraudulent origination.

  • Fraudulent conveyance and/or assignment.  Huge percentages of the loans were never properly conveyed to the MBS trusts.  We know this to be factual at this point in time, especially among private-label loans.  Many were sold more than once and even more have hidden clouds on the title.  A recent study of 400 foreclosures in California showed that nearly half of the foreclosure sales were conducted by someone who appeared not to own the property and 84% of the files contained the appearance of clear violations of the law.

  • Destruction of private property rights.  MERS and everything associated with the "slicing and dicing" of mortgages has severely damaged private property rights throughout America.  Private property rights are not only a huge part of what makes America great, it is also a core principle and belief of the Libertarian Party.

And this is just foreclosures and housing.  But the frauds don't end there.

Wachovia was busted for running drug money.  Now as a Libertarian I believe that drugs should be legal.  But the fact is that they're not, and that Wachovia got caught running hundreds of millions of dollars that were then used to buy both planes and one presumes guns used to murder people both in Mexico and America.  They "paid a fine", making this a "cost of doing business."  Murder is the very definition of initiation of force.

If you think this is an "isolated incident" you're wrong.  I've documented more instances of apparently fraudulent behavior than I can count -- in fact, you can't swing around a dead cat by the tail in my Tickers without reading about another outrage.  One of the Tickers worthy of reading again on this point is found here, which shows a chart of some of the serial fraudsters who swore at the time they got caught the first time to never do it again -- but they did.

The point at hand here, and the point that Libertarians and the Libertarian party must take note of, is that there is a voting base of literal tens of millions that have been screwed in some form or fashion by these crimes.

These are not mistakes, they are crimes that any Libertarian would agree should be crimes and in many cases they're not just allegations they're admitted felonies -- crimes for which you or I, not so politically connected, would be rotting in prison for -- and justly so.

So here's the question to the Party, and to candidates running under this party banner:

Do you actually want to win an election or not?

Because if you do actually want to win here's the issue that brings you that victory.  It is the issue that touches damn near everyone in America, the issue that has literally screwed five million people out of their house, has screwed millions more out of their jobs, has killed people (when the fraud touches the drug companies) and has dispossessed millions more of thousands, tens of thousands, or their entire life savings.  It is the issue that people will vote on above all others because the harm they have suffered is real, it is tangible, it is raw and it is an issue we can win on without compromising our principles in any way, shape or form -- in fact, it plays precisely to what Libertarians stand for from the bottom up.

This is the issue that lifts the Libertarian Party out of the 0.5% election return numbers to double-digit figures, to be followed in the next election cycle by actual victories, and that assumes you don't win outright.  With this as your central campaign focus, appealing to a solid third of the electorate or more, you just might.

The author is an EC member of the Florida Libertarian Party, a state party delegate at the conventions of both 2011 and 2012, and active at both the state and county levels.  The opinions expressed herein are his own.

Discussion below (registration required to post)
 

Main Navigation
Full-Text Search & Archives
Archive Access
Get Adobe Flash player





Blogtalk 3:30 CT Mondays
Items To Look At


Discuss The Capital Markets along with daily technical analysis with our Gold Donor program.

Where We Are, Where We're Heading (2013) - The annual 2013 Ticker

Links and Blogroll
Our policy on reciprocal links: Send us an email with your information and why you think your blog or news site would make a good addition - in most cases reciprocal link requests will be granted.
Seeking Alpha Certified
Legal Disclaimer

The content on this site is provided without any warranty, express or implied. All opinions expressed on this site are those of the author and may contain errors or omissions.

NO MATERIAL HERE CONSTITUTES "INVESTMENT ADVICE" NOR IS IT A RECOMMENDATION TO BUY OR SELL ANY FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO STOCKS, OPTIONS, BONDS OR FUTURES.

The author may have a position in any company or security mentioned herein. Actions you undertake as a consequence of any analysis, opinion or advertisement on this site are your sole responsibility.

Looking for "The Best of Market Ticker"? Check out
Ticker Classics.

Visit the forum to discuss this and other investing-related topics; see the FAQ on the forum for information about Gold Donor status including access to our technical analysis video server.

Market charts, when present, used with permission of TD Ameritrade/ThinkOrSwim Inc. Neither TD Ameritrade or ThinkOrSwim have reviewed, approved or disapproved any content herein.

Market Ticker content may be reproduced or excerpted online provided full attribution is given and the original article source is linked to. Please contact Karl Denninger for reprint permission in other media.

Submissions may be sent "over the transom" to The Editor at any time. To be considered for publication your submission must include full and correct contact information and be related to an economic or political matter of the day. All submissions become the property of The Market Ticker.

Leads on stories of current economic and political interest are always welcome. Our fax tip line is 850-897-9364; please include contact information with your transmission.

 
Comments.......
User: Not logged on
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 2  First12Last
User Info The Libertarian Party Opportunity About To Be Lost in forum [Market-Ticker]
Eaglewwit
Posts: 6054
Incept: 2007-11-30
Green
SoCal
Banned
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Ignorance is rampant, even in the libertarian party. Can't say I am surprised.
Drench
Posts: 28631
Incept: 2009-11-10
Green
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Maybe Ron Paul's death will be the catalyst.
Dakine2004
Posts: 9229
Incept: 2007-10-23
Gold A True American Patriot!
MD.MI.NC.SD.
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
during the summer of 2008


31 July 2008...
Paulpi3rce
Posts: 5
Incept: 2011-12-23

Worcester, MA
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
Fraudulent origination of loans. 80% of one major bank's production of loans in 2007 was known by the bank to not meet its own quality guidelines

I bought my house in 2008 without knowing anything about these frauds and games by the banks. I've since read diligently to understand our situation. My wife and I went for a house on the upper-end of what we could afford (stupid me didn't know much and they tell you how much you can afford - which we went well under, but I truly did not understand how much taxes and bills add up to) and local banks would not give us a loan. The house needed lots of work and no one wanted to go near it since we couldn't put down enough up front to fix it.

Wells Fargo stepped in and made it happen with ease. We got our house and loved Wells Fargo. I'm coming to find out it is highly unlikely the loan met their quality guidelines - especially seeing that it went straight to FHA. Trying to own 20% of it has been a losing battle - as the value declines faster than our principle payments go in (even though we fixed everything in it). I feel I'm still responsible for our situation, but if Wells Fargo knowingly gave us a bad loan, or one they didn't care if it went under (since they could bet against it and/or insure it) then perhaps it was not a fair dealing - since they had nothing to lose. I wish I could pull a Greece and drop parts of what I owe with Wells Fargo or Freddie (who ever has my loan). We still pay our mortgage but I don't believe it would be unfair to ask for 20% off the principle or I'll give them nothing more.

Does it have to get to forclosure to have been fraud? I would suppose not.
Lowbeyond
Posts: 16866
Incept: 2008-02-11
Green A True American Patriot!
CO aka West NJ/East CA
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
you can. just walk

----------
Maybe it was a birdy bread-bomber from the future?!
Joejohns
Posts: 694
Incept: 2010-09-09
Green

Banned
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
There maybe a base of some millions, but you are NOT going to get them to vote based on that statement of the platform.

You have to lay out IN THEIR language what the benefits to them would be.

Saying it will all collapse in the "future" is not going to motivate them to vote as it has not in the past.

Most peeps are future proof , they always tend to believe they and others will be more virtuous in the future. Just get past this current challenge and stay positive and everything will work out.

Most peeps , even hip deep in fraud, believe they have not done anything wrong or at least they deserve it as the good outweighs the bad.
Use of force is easy to rationalize then.

You can shove math proofs at them , but it never has been and never will be what they vote on.


Mannfm11
Posts: 3535
Incept: 2009-02-28
Gold
DFW, Tx
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
First of all, a true Libertarian probably stays out of politics, seeing as politics is all about getting enough people together on one side to screw someone else out of what they can get. My last election was 1992, after which I decided the whole thing was a stage show.

Ron Paul went back to the Republican party because he had no platform to be seen as a Libertarian. As long as the crooks that run this outfit from the back rooms can divide the vote over wars and other nonsense (Democrats are always against the war when the President is Republican, for them at all other times), it is hard to establish a third party. The results come out Bezelbub 49%, Satan 49%, X factors 2%. Being the X factors are usually heavily on one side or the other, the lessor of 2 evils, they abandon ship and go to one or the other party.

Ron Paul has opened that bottle. Go to Youtube and you can see Paul asking for handcuffs in debates and campaign speaches. You won't hear that from Romney, because he might be the one wearing them, if they dug deep enough. Most people are too engaged in the nonsense put out on the evening news to understand the government is enslaving us to the special interests. It would be totally out of the question to get rid of enough of government to fix the economy, as they all think, if we don't have this then what? I tell you what, you get rid of all this national security stuff. I was reading about this ACTA nonsense, a secret treaty drawn up by all the outfits that want us to pay for seeing bugs bunny and all the other crap that pops up around the net. The tenents of the treaty are totalitarian. People currious of what is in the treaty have been rebuffed for reasons of national security. Whose ****ing security? The criminals that drew the damn thing up? Do we really want an outfit like that running our lives? First TSA, then PIPA, then ACTA. I say bring on the terrorists, if this is what anti-terror is all about, what media control is all about?

We have a golden opportunity to change what is going on. The young people around the US are interested in Libertarian ideas. Ron Paul has them stirred up. We are at a junction in history, seize the moment. Be ready for time to run out, as that is when the Libertarian idea will have a chance. Whether it be a takeover of one of the 2 major parties or a third party.

Mish posted some of this interview and a link for the full interview with Lacy Hunt put out by John Mauldin. http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.c....

Follow the link or read what Mish posted. The whole thing is one of the best interviews on economics I have read anywhere. Hunt knows what is going on. Hunt mentions the 18th century philosopher David Hume, who some very smart guys of the time (they had more knowledge back then than we do now, as there wasn't mass nonsense fed through a vaccuum tube for thousands of hours by the time one was 20 years old). I am going to quote what Hume said. This is one of the most informative 29 pages of material the layman will read anywhere and worth posting on everyones Facebook page.

Hume said in A Public Credit: When a government has mortgaged all its future revenue, the state lapses into tranquility, languor and impotence.

For dummies like me, the definition of lanquor is: 1. lack of energy or vitality; sluggishness. 2. lack of spirit or interest; listlessness; stagnation. 3. physical weakness or faintness. 4. emotional softness …

What this means is the government is spent. Maybe we will have enough support to then pick up the pieces and get back to a free society.

----------
The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
Lowbeyond
Posts: 16866
Incept: 2008-02-11
Green A True American Patriot!
CO aka West NJ/East CA
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Poeple cant even ID the VP for ****s sake. David Hume? Surely you jest.

----------
Maybe it was a birdy bread-bomber from the future?!
Peteb
Posts: 128
Incept: 2010-11-16

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
A Karl has pointed out many times, financial fraud is the key issue of our times. The Libertarian Party ignores it at their peril.

But there are people out there who will not let that happen.

And Mannfm11, true libertarians get to work instead of dropping out and quoting Hume.
Winstonsmith2009
Posts: 1060
Incept: 2009-08-05

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Trying to use our political system to affect significant change is a complete and total waste of time. Between the fatal flaws in that system which have evolved specifically to prevent significant challenges to the two-party duopoly and the gross ignorance of the average voter (thanks, in part, to the superficial, lap dog, appeal-to-the-lowest-common-denominator corporate media that no longer goes to the expense of true investigative journalism), no national-level boat rocker will ever be elected except in times of a major crisis where the games and circuses of the masses are severely affected forcing them to pay attention and get off of their sofas. Of course, with US voters arguably even more ignorant than those in 1930s Germany...

The only possible fix I see is an Article 5 constitutional convention with the goal of passing a constitutional amendment that, for example, states that:

1. All references to "persons' in the Constitution refer to natural persons, not artificial persons (corporations)
2. No private money whatsoever will be allowed to be spent on campaigns; public funding only with strict (and very low) limits on the total that can be spent (adjusted for inflation)

Other nice to haves, but not as essential as the above (#4 might kill the amendment process since it threatens the unsustainable gravy train perceived by the ignorant voting public as "free money"):

3. Exhaustive Ballot method to be used and None of the Above as a ballot choice in all elections
4. Budgets will always be balanced except in times of a Congressionally declared war for national survival

With anything less than an amendment of the Constitution or serious economic collapse, I guarantee that absolutely nothing significant involving our national priorities or budgetary policies will change. The system will be forever locked in an infinite loop of dysfunction.
Eighty6thebs
Posts: 4180
Incept: 2007-06-26
Green
It's contained to sub-prime!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
About to be lost? When the hell was it ever found? I'm one of the 530k who voted for Barr but I have no illusions we actually have a 3rd party choice.

Hit the gas Thelma. This mess won't be fixed at the ballot box....America is too stupid at this point and **** I'd argue they always were too stupid. Let's not forget the majority of people in the US were not in favor of our independence or the revolutionary war. It was a few courageous people that made that happen not some democracy.

----------
"Sounds to me like you guys a couple of bookies" - Billy Ray Valentine

"No I am not scared, and neither should you be!" - Iraqi Information Minister
Uwe
Posts: 6425
Incept: 2009-01-03
Gold A True American Patriot!
19446
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
KD wrote..
Let me remind everyone that in order to be a Libertarian one must, in writing, swear or affirm to the following oath:

I do not believe in the initiation of force as a means to achieve social or political goals.

Indeed. I did that more than 25 years ago, and it remains as valid now as it was then.

I absolutely do believe that theft and fraud are crimes by virtue of the fact that they deprive a victim of his right to property, but I do not agree with the notion that:
KD wrote..
Fraud, ladies and gentlemen, is the initiation of force.

Force deprives a victim of his right to liberty, not just property. In the extreme, it deprives him of his right to life. The difference? A victim of theft or fraud can be compensated for the loss of his property. But a man deprived of life or liberty can never truly be made whole.

BTW, IMO, the oath requires Libertarians to oppose all forms of taxation, as there is no form of taxation which does not involve the explicit threat of violent force being initiated against a non-payer. This includes sales taxes and tariffs.

-Uwe-

----------
“Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience.” - John Locke
Asimov
Posts: 103858
Incept: 2007-08-26
Gold
East Tennessee Eastern Time
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Very nice ... I wanna call it a diatribe, but that has negative connotations and I think it's an extremely good point.

----------
It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Grashopa
Posts: 2609
Incept: 2009-02-03
Green

Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:

1. All references to "persons' in the Constitution refer to natural persons, not artificial persons (corporations)

Great idea, why protect organizations from the government. Lets just merge the corporations with the government because thats what will happen when the government comes in to take Apple's cash since they aren't 'using it to help the people'.

Quote:

2. No private money whatsoever will be allowed to be spent on campaigns; public funding only with strict (and very low) limits on the total that can be spent (adjusted for inflation)


Even better idea, steal my money so you can run ads to get elected to steal more of my money.

----------
Theft is evil
Jymm
Posts: 72
Incept: 2012-01-22

Wisconsin
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I think the Libertarian party DOES need to show itself as different from the Republican party. Fiscal responsibility and freedom of choice are the two biggest issues. The Republicans lie about Fiscal responsibility and want to control you in all other areas of life, like religion and marriage. The Republicans try to take away our rights, with The Patriot act, NDAA and SOPA. Yet they somehow get away with blaming it all on the Democrats. Showing the Libertarians are really different is the key to making the party work. I think it can be done. Look at the ratings of Congress right now. People are begging for something different.
The question of is he electable needs to be addressed. As long as the media plays this false notion, things will remain the same.
Dakine2004
Posts: 9229
Incept: 2007-10-23
Gold A True American Patriot!
MD.MI.NC.SD.
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
Look at the ratings of Congress right now


Not a good argument: "Congress stinks, but MY Congressman is good - look at all the bennies/pork he brings home..."
Mannfm11
Posts: 3535
Incept: 2009-02-28
Gold
DFW, Tx
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Peteb, you clearly can't comprehend English. I'm not quoting Hume just to be cleaver. Read what he said. It is the truth. Read what I wrote after what he said. I think 86 got it. These idiots are too busy looting and bribing to do anything different. The Romans weren't too potent after they went broke.

What do you think happens if we cut our deficits and get government out of our business and all other businesses they engage? Most people go broke. It is a guarantee, 100% mathematical probability. The same thing happens if we do that happens if we don't,other than the fact it won't be as bad if we don't drive it off the cliff with spending, save for one thing. The whole world is going to bitch and cry. If this thing goes bust, it is just bust and someone has to pick up the pieces.

You might start finding out what a libertarian is. I would quit worrying so much about these bastards stealing and just let them go broke. If they had let the banks go broke, the crooks would have been standing there naked with a lot of*****ed off people out there. Strip the money system of the rigged game it has been given. People want to deal with credit, let them, but don't set up a government racket to enable it to go on. People that give their money to the banks need to realize the banks owe more money than exists and when it comes time for grab, they probably won't get theirs back and the government isn't going to give one **** about it. Let every idiot kill themselves with meth and all the other drugs that want to do so. In fact, make sure we all have free access to opium and the other substances the multi trillion dollar drug cartel have use to extort us for the past 300 years. The FDA is merely one more international extortion racket. The reason there is no free trade in this stuff is what would cost a few dollars or even cents costs hundreds or thousands. To think these pukes are given domain over natural substances. Hell isn't half full and we THINK we live in a free society?

So, we going to elect a government to make people do it our way? What kind of libertarian is that? When they let the libertarians have to wheel, the cookie is going to crumble or already has. Not a day sooner. The country will merely have to be reborn.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/chodorov/chod....

http://leonardliggio.org/

http://mises.org/document/3316

If you want to know what Libertarian is about, those link might get you started. It is kind of like the John Birchers. I ran into some and they weren't even familiar with their own literature.

Here is a link to the mises.org literature page. Free books, read all you want on the computer. I would start with Hayak, Rothbard or Mises.

http://mises.org/document/3316

----------
The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
Oldno7
Posts: 2138
Incept: 2008-11-14
Gold
RECALL STATE USA
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Dakine

How can that be Obummer said in 2008 that he would not sign any bill that contained pork projects.

----------
IT'S THE SPENDING STUPID The US must become less a government of men, and more a government of LAW.
When people lose everything and have nothing left to lose they lose it -Gerald Celente
Vernonb
Posts: 396
Incept: 2009-06-03
Silver
State College, PA
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
One cannot simply ignore politics as politics will NOT ignore you. Its like sleeping in a lion's den. It is just a matter of time before you become the next meal.

Libertarians want liberty and justice for ALL people-great and small. If that were not such a noble cause why was there an American Revolution?

It looks as if some people on this forum would complain if TRUE LIBERTY were somehow 'forced' upon them. Perhaps they instead prefer TYRANNY? The idea here is to not make the country a reflection of your personal ideal - but a to the true noble ideal. If the liberty ideal ultimately takes force/resistance to remove tyrants and their supporters then so be it.

I had to re-read a few of Karl's comments here. Yes "initiation of force" is the key here. That doesn't me I can't resist by force if that is the only means left to me. The problem in this country is that the defenders get labelled as the aggressors and the majority believe the stream of lies fed to them by the government and media.

It's just a matter of time before the system collapses. Starving men have little to fear and are difficult to keep controlled. The desperate, ignorant, and uneducated become fodder and the clay for the dreams of tyrants.


----------
"The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.”
-Alber Camus (1913-1960)
Abn0rmal
Posts: 9261
Incept: 2009-01-10
Green A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Vernonb wrote..
One cannot simply ignore politics as politics will NOT ignore you.
What you're saying is true however it doesn't necessarily follow that getting involved in politics is the best response to this situation.

If you live in an town where the local mafia demands protection money from all businesses you can't ignore them but trying to take over the organization from the inside with the goal of turning it into a charity rather than a protection racket doesn't seem like a viable strategy either.
Winstonsmith2009
Posts: 1060
Incept: 2009-08-05

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:

1. All references to "persons' in the Constitution refer to natural persons, not artificial persons (corporations)

Great idea, why protect organizations from the government. Lets just merge the corporations with the government because thats what will happen when the government comes in to take Apple's cash since they aren't 'using it to help the people'.

Response:

Gosh, perhaps this is why I said "for example" in my text. The intent is to eliminate all _political_ free speech and nullify all Supreme Court decisions related to that primarily for _multinational_ corporations that have no allegiance whatsoever to any nation or any interest in maintaining a standard of living in any particular nation. If there's a better wording to accomplish that, use it. Read the book "Unequal Protection: How Corporations Became "People" - And How You Can Fight Back" to realize what an absolute scam this corporate free speech (monetary bribes) was from the very start of the 14th Amendment.

Quote:

2. No private money whatsoever will be allowed to be spent on campaigns; public funding only with strict (and very low) limits on the total that can be spent (adjusted for inflation)

Even better idea, steal my money so you can run ads to get elected to steal more of my money.

Response:

They're already stealing your money and that's not going to end unless you elect a government that's representative of YOUR interests. That is _NEVER_ _EVER_ going to happen with the current "politicians for sale to the highest bidder" system because your aren't a billionaire or a multinational corporation.

I also said that the amount of money would be _severely_ limited forcing the promotion of a candidate away from completely superficial (but expensive) TeeVee spots and back into free coverage provided in the print media and the Internet.

None of my suggested amendment wording is even remotely perfect, but I think the intent of it is to eliminate forever the HORRIBLE defects in our political process that will _NEVER_ be rectified with anything else. Mere "campaign finance reform" has not and will not fix anything because it is nothing more than politicians and their owners trying to provide an impression of trying to fix a totally corrupted system USING that totally corrupted system. AIN'T gonna' work.

BTW, here's a video (start at 1:14) about what virtually every corporation was limited to in virtually every state of the union in 1820. Also covered is how corporate personhood as a post-Civil War "decision" of the Supreme Court is a myth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY_lybBSU....

Reason: Added video link
Winstonsmith2009
Posts: 1060
Incept: 2009-08-05

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Mannfm11, I consider myself a Libertarian. However, it doesn't matter what I am in our complete and total farce of representative democracy. The artificial constructs called "political parties" make no difference in a country with an ignorant, heavily propagandized voting population with political campaigns and candidates owned by a moneyed minority. The system is absolutely beyond fixing using the system with the exception of the intended last resort, an Article 5 constitutional convention.
Winstonsmith2009
Posts: 1060
Incept: 2009-08-05

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
The 196 people who will choose our next president

http://www.salon.com/2012/02/16/the_196_....

Of course, their ability to "choose" our candidates is enabled only by the abject ignorance of the typical American voter. But I don't see that EVER changing.
Bangkokian
Posts: 40
Incept: 2010-09-17

Bangkok
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:


The definition of insanity, according to Albert Einstein, is repeating the same acts over and over and expecting different results.



I have serious doubts Einstein ever said this. Can anyone source it? Einstein of all people would have been quite familiar with randomness, and would have been extremely aware that random variables exist within any environment and can easily affect results even when one believes all variables are accounted for and controlled. Repeated actions frequently *do* yield different results, even in controlled laboratory settings. For this very reason, good scientists *do* repeat experiments and often do expect different results when they believe unaccounted variables exist.

...and if Einstein did say it, well...chalk it up to everyone (including Einstein) saying stupid **** here and there.

Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 2  First12Last