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"Finding faults is easy"

Especially when those faults are smashed store windows and mass defacement.

Except that neither is the case.

You're not in Oakland. You also didn't watch the LIVE TV news streams last night. I did. Or, if you did, you're lying, which makes it even worse.

There were a very small number (under 100) out of the many thousands who were marching that tried this sort of ****. MOST of it was stopped by other protesters locking arms and physically barricading the buildings they were trying to deface with their own bodies, putting themselves in harm's way.

Incidentally there were two protesters that appear to have been intentionally run over by a fat-cat driving a Mercedes last night during the protest. Why aren't you "reporting" on that? I have unconfirmed reports that one of the demonstrators that was run over has expired from their injuries.

This morning a number of the demonstrators are out cleaning up the trash left by the handful of miscreants. There were reports late last night that several of them also were out scrubbing off graffiti as well.

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Ibbibby, I apparently made the mistake of thinking that you were rational. You are clearly not here for intelligent discussion about the article at hand.

By your line of reasoning ...

"Rational = Agree with me"

You have a very interesting take on what it means to be rational....

KD- what would you have the guy in the Mercedes do? roll down the window and say "PLEASE STOP BEATING THE CRAP OUT OF MY CAR AND THREATENING ME?" They surrounded him, threatened him- and if it happened to me, I would have done more than run them over.

why dont you post the video of that mercedes event?

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There were reports late last night that several of them also were out scrubbing off graffiti as well.

Karl,

As another poster inquired ... can you cite these reports?

The only cite I see is from Mother Jones and I have serious reservations about their credibility ...

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/11/occu....

Thanks,

Irish

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this game was played by Russia a few years back

No it was not.

Russia's movement was not a movement proposing adherence to a two-centuries old national founding document, with broad transpartisan participation by celebrated fraud prosecutors, voices from the left, voices from the right, voices from the center, and voices from libertarian corners as well.

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the other 1/2 of the enemies list is try to control the crowd. (via media and funding)

Let's pretend this isn't a completely contrived assertion without a single scrap of data to back it up.

In fact, let's assume that it's 100% true (even though it's not).

Your alternatives are making this movement work for America -- or AUTHORITARIAN FASCISM.

That's it!

Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and your other heroes are not going to swoop in and save the day, transforming America into a conservative dreamland. They work for the bad guys. They're the ones claiming that Wall Street earned all that wealth they've got through hard work and self-sacrifice, that there was no fraud, and that the anger of the masses is due to "socialism" and "envy." They will fight to the very end of their programs to ensure that every dime in your bank account and future earnings (and those of the next five generations) are pledged to backstop their masters.

You are going to either see a messy reorganization of the current structure around something resembling our country's original constitutional order, or a complete breakdown and emergence of fascist ideology catering to people's base prejudices.

That's it.

Those are your options.

Right now, judging from your actions and attitudes, you're going for the fascist option.

And they're not going to take as kindly to your criticism of their background, motives and policies as OWS will. OWS will allow you to participate in their movement and have a voice in crafting policy and ideas -- the only participation you'll get in authoritarianism is slavery.

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There are more tangents to the arc of this movement than only 2 options (support or reject)

Actually, no, there are not.

It's a bit like fraud or other basic moral questions. At this point, you're with the good guys (the only people in the country risking their liberty to take a stand), or you're with the status quo, its collapse, and inevitable aftermath in a vacuum of power -- authoritarianism.

That's it.

You don't get some fantasy "third" option where everything happens exactly the way your hidebound ideology demands.

This is reality, not a video game or right-wing talk radio.

http://www.businessinsider.com/two-oakla....

read the last paragraph...

If OWS is actually for the Constitution and for limited Government, I am with them!


*Note: That means no more social engineering..........No more preferred status people.....etc.etc. We are all equal!

Brian, that is a "do you still beat your wife, yes or no" type question. The only issue I posed is whether the occupy constitution page is representative of the movement or cherry picked.

Perhaps someone can give me a more definitive, primary source, with more volume and weight that the NY general assembly site. That is were I derive my opinion of what the bulk of the movement is about.

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In fact, let's assume that it's 100% true (even though it's not).

Your alternatives are making this movement work for America -- or AUTHORITARIAN FASCISM.

That's it!

Yet another false choice debate tactic ...

So our Constitutional Republic is already dead? When's the funeral?

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Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and your other heroes are not going to swoop in and save the day, transforming America into a conservative dreamland.

Wow. Any credibility you might have garnered just went completely out the window with me as I have no heroes other than my parents ...

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You are going to either see a messy reorganization of the current structure around something resembling our country's original constitutional order, or a complete breakdown and emergence of fascist ideology catering to people's base prejudices.

That's it.

Those are your options.

Right now, judging from your actions and attitudes, you're going for the fascist option.

And they're not going to take as kindly to your criticism of their background, motives and policies as OWS will. OWS will allow you to participate in their movement and have a voice in crafting policy and ideas -- the only participation you'll get in authoritarianism is slavery.

And more false choices ...

Uh huh, which action came first?

Business Insider, not exactly a left-wing rag, wrote wrote..

Eyewitnesses on the ground report that the man in this picture drove his Mercedes into protesters after becoming frustrated by the delay the crowd was causing at an intersection.

Two people were struck and one dragged 30 feet. Reports are coming in that one of those injured has been critically hurt.

Witnesses say that once the car struck the protesters it attempted to speed up and drive through the central group of people but was unable to do so and stopped.

Surrounded by the angry crowd, who dumped coffee on the car and flagged down police, the man attempted to switch places with his woman passenger, but switched back when police arrived.


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/two-oakla....]

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Actually, no, there are not.

It's a bit like fraud or other basic moral questions. At this point, you're with the good guys (the only people in the country risking their liberty to take a stand), or you're with the status quo, its collapse, and inevitable aftermath in a vacuum of power -- authoritarianism.

That's it.

You don't get some fantasy "third" option where everything happens exactly the way your hidebound ideology demands.

This is reality, not a video game or right-wing talk radio.

That's right because anyone who disagrees with you derives all of their reason, knowledge, and intelligence from video games or right-wing talk radio ...

Seriously, just keep posting ... your ability to beclown yourself is really helping the credibility of your arguments.

Brian- If am against abortion, why would I join a pro-abortion rally?

I wouldn't. I would go to counter demonstrate, yes. But I am not going to put my name on an event's movement for the sake of joining the movement.

Yay- I joined an pro-choice rally today- yeah right.

Same goes with OWS. I am against taking this country to a socialist/communist destination. I argue we are already at the socialist destination and are refueling towards communism.

Disprove that AND show me where the OWS group is actively removing the communist from the group and I will join the rally.

Every video I see, I see red flags..literal red flags... in every march. Pro communism posters....LOTS of them. I see more of those signs than I do "end the fed" signs. I see more "I want free tuition and a guaranteed job" signs than I do pro-individual rights and choices signs. WAY more.

ITs a movement that has aspects I like, but motivated for the wrong reasons.

KD- I notice how you conveniently left out crucial details....

"Someone claiming to be on the ground when the incident happened Tweeted this to us: "They deserved to be run down. Were you there? They scared the hell out of those people. Pounded on hood.""

and in this case, you are right KD- driver was in the wrong..

I was relying on text reporting and was waiting on the video.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/video?id=8417....

If they deserved to be run down, then I guess it's OK.

I usually kill anyone that pounds on my hood, too. The cops haven't arrested me yet, either.

^^^ this. Geez.

My initial reaction to this event was due to reports that protesters had surrounded the vehicle while at intersection and began beating the car and threatening the driver. That was my understanding and at the time I had not video of the attack.

Now that there is video out- I join the opposite side. Guy was wrong for running over the protester.

But Mike, you said you had VIDEO EVIDENCE that the assault was provoked and justified.

So where is it? I can't find it what I saw last night was video AFTER the original assault. Yes, AFTER he ran the protesters over his car was surrounded, pounded on and he was prevented from leaving. The driver also tried to switch places with his passenger.

"Someone on the ground" was tweeting that the entire group was rioting, breaking windows and burning things last night too.

Unfortunately for them the news choppers were up last night and I was watching the live feeds. There were a few fires - in the street, lit AFTER the tear gas was fired (the smoke is a dispersant and is a perfectly-legitimate counteraction to firing of tear gas.) There were no fires that I saw in BUILDINGS (contrary to the claims that arson was being committed all over Twitter.)

There were a couple of windows broken. But there were ALSO visible chains of demonstrators PREVENTING THE BREAKING OF WINDOWS by a group that appeared to number about 20 all dressed in black with ski masks on - HUNDREDS of demonstrators locked arms and formed a HUMAN WALL to protect property.

Go ahead Mike, keep up the bull****. My patience with this crap while your so-called "freedom loving group" out east keeps endorsing and returning to office one of the chief thieves and douchefaces that is DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the crap that's going on in this nation is QUICKLY running out.

Your initial reaction was because you WANTED IT TO BE TRUE. If you weren't being blinded by your ideology, you'd have waited for the full facts before calling Karl out like you did.

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KD- I notice how you conveniently left out crucial details....

Pounding on the hood justifies lethal force? No ****ing way.

I don't know what the law is in California, but here in Florida you are not justified using lethal force in your car unless either you are confronted with lethal force or someone physically breaks into the interior of your car while you are inside. Being scared by someone pounding on your hood doesn't cut it.

"Irishsamurai" wrote..

So our Constitutional Republic is already dead? When's the funeral?

There hasn't been a funeral because the government's been playing "Weekend at Bernies" with the corpse for a few decades now.

KD- I said "why dont you post the video of that mercedes event?"

I obviously did not have it at the time (but was searching). You happened to be right- but you too, did not have the video.

You took your side, I took mine- I happened to be wrong. And I owned up to it before your last posting.

And what "freedom loving group back east" are you talking about??


MDM- my understanding, for the 3rd time- was the the guy was SURROUNDED by protestors beating his car and threatening him. (which was clearly not the case now that I found the video).

Yes, if you are in your car surrounded by people(not letting you back up and leave) threatening you and are pounding on your car- i would feel threatened for my life and justified to use lethal force.

Again- this was NOT the case with the guy in the mercedes. He clearly could back up.

Mikeit83 - Hat tip for having the courage to change your opinion when you are presented with new evidence (instead of clinging to a need to "be right no matter what"). That takes character and courage. Wish more people could do that.

You owned up to it while I was posting. I did not see it until after I hit "reply."

Your district is.... who's again?

First and last post... no point arguing with Komrade Karl and his merry band of useful idiots. I've seen this sort of mob mentality all of my life. They are right and any evidence or exhortation in opposition will be scoffed at and derided. No, they are right and you are wrong... until the day comes when the warnings of the skeptics is proven correct. But don't try to attempt an "I told you so" or you'll get banned lol. Carry on useful idiots, don't let any critical thinking get in the way of a good leftist revolution.