| User Info
| Mush's Diploma Is Void (More Kucinich) in forum [Market-Ticker]
|
Truthseeker
Posts: 8505
Incept: 2007-10-07
NorCal
|
This whole series has been remarkably educational. And what little credibility Mish might have had has been rather thoroughly eroded.
Thanks for the exposition---several of my luddite friends are seeing the light as a direct result.
Shame they don't teach financial history anymore, but you make a pretty good substitute teacher!
----------
"...But people better realize that the worst-case scenario could actually happen.9/11 happened. This can happen. An economic 9/11, the likes of which we've never seen." Gerald Celente
|
Marketswork
Posts: 2320
Incept: 2009-02-27
Southern Oregon
|
Quote:No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Control of the Congress.
No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay. Consent of Congress... pretty explicit besides "No State"
----------
William Wallace enters history when he assassinated William de Heselrig, the English High Sheriff of Lanark, in May 1297. Over 300 million guns and over 1 trillion rounds of ammo, 535 pricks are pushing the buttons of 300 million or more free gun owning people. --I don't like the odds for those pricks.
|
Reepotomac
Posts: 94
Incept: 2010-04-18
|
well, this is getting WAY over my head. 1. Mish and Karl are my two main hero bloggers. I really like both of them. 2. just one of many possibly dumb questions and comments I could give- "Bills of credit". Wouldn't that be a thing that promises to pay someone something, possibly in a certain amount at a certain time? What is the THING that is to be "paid". And what is "payment? IMO, under the law now, it is not possible to PAY a debt, because the money system is composed of perpetually circulating IOU's. No one is ever paid. that is why the UCC uses words like "discharge" and "satisfaction". that is why the states are not making something besides gold and silver coin a payment of a debt. There is no payment. Money creation needs to be constrained by something besides the good intentions and judgement of the issuer.
|
Geckogm
Posts: 3743
Incept: 2007-06-26
Canyon Lake
Online
|
Remarkably educational indeed!
And very Merry Christmas to you and yours Karl!
|
Jal
Posts: 520
Incept: 2009-03-25
|
I still do not understand ... who is limited from issuing credit ... credit cards.
jal
|
Genesis
Posts: 131485
Incept: 2007-06-26
|
A Bill of Credit is a promissory note.
A "Dollar" is a promissory note.
If I can issue one, I can issue the other. Some Bills of Credit pay interest, some do not. A "Bill of Credit" is a subset of unsecured promissory notes that are (1) issued by a state entity of some sort and (2) are considered legal tender within that jurisdiction.
The hierarchy looks like this for a government entity, with each lower level being part of, but not all of, the above:
> Borrowing >>> Borrowing on Credit (without asset-backing) >>>>> Bill of Credit
That is, if I can borrow generally (unrestricted) I can do so on my signature and I can emit Bills of Credit. The Constitution specifically permits the second (Borrowing on Credit) to the Federal Government. It therefore encompasses all subsets of that ability. The Constitution does not prevent States from borrowing per-se, but it does prohibit The States Bills Of Credit, so they cannot engage in that particular subset of the whole. This is why a State can issue a General Obligation bond (backed by its ability to tax, and not by a specific asset), but cannot allow you to tender those GO bonds in payment of state taxes (as doing so would constitute the third subset, which they are barred from by The Constitution.)
A convertible ("hard") currency (e.g. "Payable in silver on demand") is an asset-backed loan. The issuance of same encumbers the silver, just as does issuing a mortgage on your own house provides you with a stack of "dollars", but your home is now encumbered until those "dollars" are returned according to contract.
All currency is nothing other than a credit instrument - that it bears no interest doesn't change what it is. The difference between fiat and hard currency is that one is backed by a bare promise, the other backed by an asset.
----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
|
Jeffrey_thomason
Posts: 7131
Incept: 2009-03-11
|
Quote:I still do not understand ... who is limited from issuing credit ... credit cards. Not just credit, but credit that is legal tender.
----------
"Until we look beyond the throne where the power structure lies, we'll fight amongst ourselves as freedom dies. The only hope for human kind lies in solidarity. The strength in our numbers sets us free."
|
Throxxofvron
Posts: 10448
Incept: 2009-02-17
Hyper-Speculative Psycho-Facsistic Parabolic Blow-Off
|
Quote:I still do not understand ... who is limited from issuing credit ... credit cards. DEBT; NOT CREDIT. These are DEBT CARDS. PRESENTLY Almost ALL US CURRENCY ITSELF IS A DEBT INSTRUMENT -AT ORIGINATION. Currency is BORROWED into Existence; -WITH INTEREST. Only COINS appear to be emitted sans incurrence of DEBT by the US Government.
----------
DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides “During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” -George Orwell
|
Jstanley01
Posts: 8282
Incept: 2008-07-30
San Antonio, Texas
|
----------
You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum
|
Super-elite
Posts: 14
Incept: 2010-09-28
Arizona
|
Even if we all agreed that the bill is constitutional, I’m still asking myself what the inflationary consequences are of passing this bill.
Mish writes "Those looking for hyperinflation can find the roots of it in that bill". Arkady writes that with the current system, "at least our total debt grows and Americans are still aware of the cost". From what I can tell, the crux of both Mish's and Arkady's objections is that giving Congress the authority to print money is madness. It will result in runaway spending. If I understood correctly, Karl counters that we have runaway spending now, but the accumulation of sovereign debt allows us to postpone facing the consequences until a future time. Giving Congress the power to print money would have immediate inflationary consequences, and it would be easier to hold politicians accountable for overspending.
But what would happen to all the existing debts? Arkady writes "[if Karl] believes that paying off the existing national debt in newly printed United States Notes is somehow possible without a major debasement [so be it]", suggesting he thinks that if the bill is passed, we'd see a major loss in purchasing power of our money. Would or wouldn't we?
I haven't been able to find any discussion on what the transition would look like from a fractional reserve standard to a "one dollar of capital" standard. What would happen to the banks if this bill were enacted? How would the banks raise the capital to meet the new requirement? Is this a process that would take decades? Would the entire banking system collapse because they are way overleveraged now? Is this bill a way of saying "let’s forgive all debts of the past and start over"?
|
Bohemian
Posts: 9662
Incept: 2010-07-27
Las Vegas
|
This is basic Constitutional law. How Mish can argue differently is just plain ignorant. Can he read?
(And personally, I'm tired of these blog war Tickers, Karl ... You are right and he is wrong and a child can see it. No offense to you and your Ticker choices, but this is like the third Ticker trying to prove an idiot is an idiot.)
----------
"The politicians are put there to give you the idea you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice; you have owners. They own you. They own everything." - George Carlin
|
Throxxofvron
Posts: 10448
Incept: 2009-02-17
Hyper-Speculative Psycho-Facsistic Parabolic Blow-Off
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_Tende....Quote:The Federal Reserve System can increase the money supply by creating money to purchase U.S. Government securities on the open market. Those "open market operations" involve the buying and selling of U.S. government securities, including federal agency securities and also (in response to recent economic turmoil) mortgage-backed securities.[18] Federal agency securities have been issued by the federal government to finance deficit spending. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution explicitly contemplates U.S. Government "securities." The Federal Government pays a TAX to the FED Cartel Banks in the form of Interest on these Securities. The Kucinich Bill is in part designed to preclude this TAX on the Federal Government by the Private FED Cartel for the generation of currency. Quote:The Federal Reserve System can also increase the money supply by allowing banks to issue more loans, which is accomplished by reducing the reserve requirement ratio. This regulation of banks is pursuant to the Commerce Clause. Commercial Banks have been wildly inflating the supply of money via loaning it into existence against inflated appraisals of property. The FED didn't have to print; JPM, Wells, BofA, Citi, etc.; did this for the FED. IMO, the Housing Bubble was as much about inflating the money supply as it was about anything else. Quote:Conversely, the Federal Reserve System can reduce the money supply by selling securities or by increasing the reserve requirement ratio. Let's see how the FED reduces the money in the system by selling at losses that would take the FED Balance Sheet NEGATIVE.
----------
DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides “During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” -George Orwell
|
Throxxofvron
Posts: 10448
Incept: 2009-02-17
Hyper-Speculative Psycho-Facsistic Parabolic Blow-Off
|
Quote:But what would happen to all the existing debts? Arkady writes "[if Karl] believes that paying off the existing national debt in newly printed United States Notes is somehow possible without a major debasement [so be it]", suggesting he thinks that if the bill is passed, we'd see a major loss in purchasing power of our money. Would or wouldn't we?
I haven't been able to find any discussion on what the transition would look like from a fractional reserve standard to a "one dollar of capital" standard. What would happen to the banks if this bill were enacted? How would the banks raise the capital to meet the new requirement? Is this a process that would take decades? Would the entire banking system collapse because they are way overleveraged now? Is this bill a way of saying "let’s forgive all debts of the past and start over"? READ THE BILL. The Federal Government will apparently be paid the PRINCIPAL paid to Banks on ALL Outstanding Loans and only get to keep the Interest. Unless I am totally miss-understanding the Bill -the Principal the the Commercial Banks created via loan origination will go to the US Government. The PRINTING that has already occurred will be PAID to the Revolving Fund of the US Treasury; the Loans become a Bank LIABILITY TO the US GOVERNMENT -with the exception of the Interest which the Banks will keep. MY interpretation of the Bill is that the Principal of Outstanding Bank Loans that were created via fractional reserve will go to paying the National Debt. It appears to ME that the Government will not merely control the emission of NEW Currency, and emit sans imposition of debt in doing so; it will also take control of the Debt Based Currency already emitted by making the the principal portion of ALL outstanding loans liabilities of the Banks TO the Federal Government: TO BE PAID TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AS THE LOANS ARE PAID OFF. Discuss THIS:


----------
DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides “During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” -George Orwell
|
Reepotomac
Posts: 94
Incept: 2010-04-18
|
OK, I don't know if it matters.... What is the MONEY that is used now? The currency is not the money, or else a five dollar bill would be five times as big as a one dollar bill. The currency REPRESENTS the money. What is the money?- a government promise, to pay, something, (gold and silver at one time) someday. Under the Kucinich plan, what is the money? Seems to me it is a faith based newly created thing called a United States Note. It can be created at will for virtually no cost. Totally fiat.
|
Mannfm11
Posts: 3617
Incept: 2009-02-28
DFW, Tx
|
This note is redeemable in the lawful money of the United States was replaced by the phrase, this Note is Legal Tender for all debts public and private.
Anything issued without that decree on it would not be worth the ink it took to print it. Paper currency has only one value, to pay debts by decree. Even when there was a gold backing, its issuance and circulation was based on the payment of debts. I do believe that regardless of all arguments, there is enough collateralized property and debt out there the money would have plenty of value. The government could do a switch, seeing as insolvency of debt collateralizing monetary units threatens the economy. They could swap currency for all the debt assets of the banks, give the crooks a little compensation for their trouble and collateralize the entire mess as it already is. It would be a nice substitute to have all this interest replace the tax liabilities we now pay. The bankers could then stick the derivative positions they have poisoned the system with up their asses and let them blow up.
----------
The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
|
Pburger
Posts: 10
Incept: 2010-11-22
|
Quote:Borrowing Power The original draft of the Constitution reported to the convention by its Committee of Detail empowered Congress to "To borrow money and emit bills on the credit of the United States." When this section was reached in the debates, Gouverneur Morris moved to strike out the clause "and emit bill on the credit of the United States." Madison suggested that it might be sufficient "to prohibit the making them a tender." After a spirited exchange of views on the subject of paper money, the convention voted, nine States to two, to delete the words "and emit bills." Nevertheless, in 1870, the Court relied in part upon this clause in holding that Congress had authority to issue treasury notes and to make them legal tender in satisfaction of antecedent debts. (Constitution of the United States, Analysis and Interpretation prepared by the Congressional Research Service, Library of Congress)
"To borrow money and emit bills on the credit of the United States." This indicates to me that Karl is wrong about the original intent of the constitution giving Congress the authority to emit bills of credit. As with all progressive-constitutional expansions of power, it was done by the Courts, not the framers of the Constitution or those that ratified it. Quote:History shows that the Convention of 1787 intended to proceed on the theory of delegated powers; the Constitution assumes it throughout, while Amendments IX. and X. declare it in express words. (Hinsdale, The American Government, 1891) I believe Karl is also wrong that the original intent of the Constitution was one of inherent, rather than delegated powers. It is self evident that the Constitution consists of the following: (1) Powers that are delegated to the United States; (2) Power that are prohibited to the United States; (3) Powers that are prohibited to the States; (4) Powers that are reserved to the States or to the people. The Constitution does not grant the Congress power to emit bills of credit because that power was expressly removed by the framers. Proper Constitutional interpretation says that if the power isn't expressly delegated, it doesn't exist. As with many other areas of Constitutional interpretation, the court was in error with respect to its opinion regarding bills of credit. Since states borrow all the time without issuing bills of credit, whatever mechanism they're using must be what the framers intended the United States to use too. I believe they weren't naive enough to trust the federal government with a power they so despised and took away from the States. Just because people like Karl choose to believe the Constitution is one of inherent powers doesn't make it so. I choose to believe the likes of Jefferson and Madison. Karl seems to believe that "credit of the United States" automatically equals "bills of credit". Florida's Constitution contains many references to "credit of the state", but Florida is prohibited from emitting bills of credit. How can that be? Is it possible that debt can be financed with instruments other than bills of credit and that's what the framers intended for the United States by striking "and emit bills" from the Constitution?
|
Genesis
Posts: 131485
Incept: 2007-06-26
|
Quote:Karl seems to believe that "credit of the United States" automatically equals "bills of credit". Florida's Constitution contains many references to "credit of the state", but Florida is prohibited from emitting bills of credit. How can that be? Is it possible that debt can be financed with instruments other than bills of credit and that's what the framers intended for the United States by striking "and emit bills" from the Constitution?
Because "Bills of Credit" are A SUBSET of "credit of the state." Which I've explained. Twice. You lost this argument about 130 years ago when the SCOTUS ruled on exactly this question. The fact remains that you can't and won't answer AntiFederalist 44, which totally demolishes your claims - instead you cite only one half of the debate that took place, which is intellectually dishonest. You're done on this thread as you've been warned. Do it again, anywhere, and you're done permanently on the forum.
----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
|
Mannfm11
Posts: 3617
Incept: 2009-02-28
DFW, Tx
|
On top of that, Governor Morris was a trained banker who with Hamilton wanted to own a big slice of the country. These guys already had all the gold and such lined up in their pockets and knew they could extend credit well beyond what they possessed.
Plus it is my understanding that checks are bills of credit. The letters of credit used to buy goods in commerce circulated as money in a lot of areas.
KD, I support your idea, or the congressman's idea, if for no other reason that sans the tribute paid bankers, we are already there. I have not read the bill, but what was written above, it appears it would proceed as I thought, the government taking the assets of the banking system and doing their own liquidation. Unlike 220 years ago, the world has an array of bank money and there isn't much trouble moving ownership of funds between people and institutions around the world through electronic verification. With limits on expansion of the supply of money and the constant liquidation of bad debt along with the withdrawal of government guarantees for all kinds of nonsense credit, I think the economy would come back. If you go to Steve Keen's site, he has his own plans and I think Keen has been working on this idea for a long time.
----------
The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
Reason: to add more.
|
Elcope
Posts: 51
Incept: 2010-02-24
Montana
|
Reason: cause I suck at posting pictures :-)
|
Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Region formerly known as the United States
|
Quote:Commercial Banks have been wildly inflating the supply of money via loaning it into existence against inflated appraisals of property. Yep ... Massive Inflation in Autos, Housing, Education, Health Care ... all the "things" the people now "buy" on credit that they almost overwhelmingly all paid cash for just 3 decades ago. FWIW, in retrospect I'd say that was all entirely intentional at the hands of "the authorities" and TPTB ... they knew exactly what they wanted and did it. Quote:The FED didn't have to print; JPM, Wells, BofA, Citi, etc.; did this for the FED. True, but I'd also add that the Fed (and Treasury) had issued them all "How Too" manuals.
|
Bagbalm
Posts: 4325
Incept: 2009-03-19
Just North of Detroit
|
Guys in the shop would borrow a twenty if they were short for the week and give you an IOU note. Nobody ever asked interest. Was that a bill of credit? Couldn't call it a contract because it was not consideration for anything nor had collateral named.
|
Economic4caster
Posts: 121
Incept: 2008-12-10
In the fetal position!
|
I want to wish you and your daughter a Merry Christmas. Thanks Karl for all you do to keep us informed on the important events.
Merry Christmas to all TF's!
----------
|
Bezzle
Posts: 15043
Incept: 2009-08-02
Banned
|
Quote:This is basic Constitutional law. How Mish can argue differently is just plain ignorant. Can he read? He's arguing because he's going off the crank deep-end. Virtually all whines of "unconstitutional" are just such, because the Supes get to decide -- and if they sit on their hands during some outrageous legislative- or federal-branch assault on liberties, well, the Constitution entitles them to do that.
----------
El Sock-Puppeto exposed and killed by Tickerguy
|
Hihoherewego
Posts: 931
Incept: 2009-02-25
|
I'm wondering if Kucinich understands as much about his bill as you do. Then I'm also wondering if the rest of Congress understands half as much about it as he does. Finally, I'm wondering why all of it is so confusing that hardly anyone really understands it at all. No wonder I'm beginning to wonder. ....................... http://www.usdebtclock.org/
|