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| Toward A Proper Liquidity Mechanism in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Mayorquimby
Posts: 13909
Incept: 2008-09-18
The Archaic Past
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Quote:Fiat currency can work, but to do so the liquidity supply must be constrained such that credit growth is never outpaced by GDP. I don't see how lobbyists and special interest groups fit into that premise (/sarcasm). It's really a monstrous political failure, not an economic one then.
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They who wish to hurt you, work within the law. - Morrissey
Gold is theft.
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Etz
Posts: 13889
Incept: 2007-06-26
LA
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Two questions with the same answer.
Who benefits from a declining Ponzi Finance Indicator and, who really runs our government and regulates system liquidity?
Well the Goldmans, Morgans, and the rest of the finance parasites of course.
Excellent write-up though.
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Legal chicanery and beneficent darkness are the banker's stoutest allies - F.Pecora.
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Marketman1012
Posts: 61
Incept: 2009-04-25
NY
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Why can't we use a free market for currency?
No laws forcing us to use gold, dollars (FRN's) or whatever...that way they can compete so no one can complain about someone monopolizing one of them?
And the only reason why some advocate gold is because they claim the free market over the last several thousand years chose gold to be the money.
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Genesis
Posts: 130695
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Quote:No laws forcing us to use gold, dollars (FRN's) or whatever...that way they can compete so no one can complain about someone monopolizing one of them? There is no law forcing you to use whatever provided you have not first incurred a debt. Don't incur debts and you can use whatever you'd like; if you wish to demand payment in grapefruits you may.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Pietertvl
Posts: 3589
Incept: 2007-12-05
NFA
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Remember a few years back, when the news would regularly report that personal spending rose X% and personal income rose Y%? And forever it seemed, spending was growing faster than income.
Perhaps an alternative version of the rule could require policy changes whenever we see that (X%>Y%) for more than (4) months in succession or more than (8) of (12) months.
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"All the perplexities, confusion and distresses in America arise not from defects in the constitution or confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, as much from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation." ~ John Adams
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Genesis
Posts: 130695
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Pieter, if spending grows faster than income by definition debt is growing faster than output 
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Abn0rmal
Posts: 9261
Incept: 2009-01-10
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Quote:The solution to this problem is to place system liquidity regulation under a ministerial regime that is respondent only to the Ponzi Finance indicator (and to further mandate that GDP be honestly reported, as distortions in GDP will of course lead to improper adjustments), both as a matter of law. This will result in credit tightening on an automatic basis as long as credit growth is exceeding economic growth - that is, so long as market actors are using credit not for investment but rather to engage in ponzi-style consumption measured simply by the objective on-balance results of credit and output rates of change. If lending is restricted to secured loans only, will the Ponzi Finance Indicator ever go negative and require adjustment?
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Marketman1012
Posts: 61
Incept: 2009-04-25
NY
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Many have tried transacting in Gold or Silver or whatever, like liberty dollars, and they get thrown in jail.
How is that no laws??
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Marketman1012
Posts: 61
Incept: 2009-04-25
NY
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The IRS still comes after you for "income"
if it is in another currency. Am i mistaken?
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Genesis
Posts: 130695
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Jbyere wrote..If lending is restricted to secured loans only, will the Ponzi Finance Indicator ever go negative and require adjustment? SHOULD it? No. MIGHT it? Yes. You're presuming nobody cheats. I'm not. Quote:Many have tried transacting in Gold or Silver or whatever, like liberty dollars, and they get thrown in jail.
How is that no laws?? They get thrown in jail for lying. How come you can transact in Disney Dollars at Disneyland? (Yes, you really can, and yes, I really have.) There are similar local currencies in some resort areas of the country and they tend to be pretty popular. All perfectly legal. Start lying and well....
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Marketman1012
Posts: 61
Incept: 2009-04-25
NY
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When people pay employees wages in gold coins, the IRS comes after you if you don't pay taxes in dollars, meaning the gold must be priced in dollars so they can tax it, that is legally giving a monopoly on money in dollars because all other currencies like gold must be looked as in terms of dollars.
So if they pay in gold, and the dollar declines and gold goes up, you still have the same currency yet they'll claim you have "gains" when it is only in terms of dollars...in terms of gold there is no gain. So the fact you must pay dollars is a sort of monopoly.
Am I missing something, I just want to point out the fact that since income taxes are collected in dollars, we are forced to use dollars.
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Genesis
Posts: 130695
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Income taxes (if lawfully owed) are debts incurred when the obligation is incurred.
Yes, you must pay your lawfully-owed debt to the government in dollars. If you lawfully owe it.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Abn0rmal
Posts: 9261
Incept: 2009-01-10
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Quote:SHOULD it? No. MIGHT it? Yes. You're presuming nobody cheats. After cheating is discovered and the insolvent bank(s) are closed and the responsible bankers are prosecuted will you still need some extra policy action to bring the system back in balance above and beyond what you have already done?
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Genesis
Posts: 130695
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Maybe Jbyer. If the distortion is not too large, no. But I presume nothing. If we have sound lending and liquidity regulation we have a stable monetary and economic system and it is damn hard to game it.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Marketman1012
Posts: 61
Incept: 2009-04-25
NY
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I understand the obligation...but the obligation has NO limits which is a problem, I am trying to say when the obligation has no limits it is a monopoly.
If the government/FED enact policies to debase the dollar so much that gold rises substantially, while the person paid in gold had no real gain (they have the same amount of gold or whatever) priced in dollars the "gain" may be eneormous, and therefore obligations may be enormous. The amount of the "gain" and therefore obligation of taxes has no limit, because the government/Fed can enact policies to inflate in unlimited amounts if they choose, so our obligations to pay debts in dollars are unlimited. If we have to use dollars to discharge debts that government can determine in an unlimited fashion...how is that not a monopoly.
Their inflationary policies if they choose can force us to use dollars, they can control gold via inflation by making it go up in dollar terms and taxing us on the phony "gains" which is obstructing the free use of gold.
I think the only reason why some hard money people advocate gold or commodities is to avoid this situation to restore economic freedom so the fed/gov. don't have power to give us unlimited obligations depending on their monetary policies in terms of fiat dollars.
I hope i make some sense in my argument.
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Mm^^
Posts: 2650
Incept: 2008-10-01
Gone, Baby, Gone
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The Fed's main mission is to provide a stable currency. I believe it also tries to maintain high, maintainable employment. The operative word here is "maintainable", as bubble jobs <created by gov't make-work, or subsidizing enterprise, is counter-productive to both mandates>
If this is, in fact, true, then simple reasoning mandates that currency must expand at a rate at least that of actual GDP growth, and perhaps a bit more to accommodate the vig charged by lending at interest. Any more than that, and it's inflationary. Any less, and it's deflationary. Although they try and smooth out the natural spikes in both, I think their mission is as stated, longer term.
If this is the case, then it's obvious why a "hard money" position cannot work, and it's also why fractional reserve lending must be allowed in a capitalistic system.
Any deviation from the above, through any nefarious means, or because of any questionable reasons, eventually results in a system-tilt and a de-railed economy.
I think you're saying that the above system CAN work, as long as the laws are enforced, accounting is honest and enforced vigorously, and politicians are removed from this process for the usual reasons.
Is this approximately your view?
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"I don't take no ****; I don't give no ****. I ain't in the **** business." Stan S**by, Air Force, retired, Special Insertion (get the pilot OUT now!), guy. He's got MY back, guys. Forever...
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Genesis
Posts: 130695
Incept: 2007-06-26
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The problem is that the cure is worse than the disease! Look at the inflationary and deflationary bouts during "hard money" in the US. They're ridiculous and bankrupted people REGULARLY (40% swings from inflation to deflation within a few years?!)
Hard money is inelastic as a system liquidity regulator and this is a major problem. In an agrarian society where there are few technological innovations and thus very rapid spurts of growth are uncommon, it can work. Any time you have rapid technological innovation it is an unmitigated disaster.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Angrysaver
Posts: 15
Incept: 2009-10-05
usa
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Karl,
Another good post. Unfortuntely, your proposal would squeeze the financial privilege out of the system. The politicians and the finance industry will never allow it, at least not without civil rebellion. Mainstream eCONomists would never support it either. That profession is CONtrolled by Wall St.
I have a question about your ponzi finance indicator. During the 1950s thru the early 1970s you indicate that debt coverage was "improving". It seems it was getting less bad, but not improving. The area of the curve above and below zero is decidedly negative, indicating a deterioration. It looks to me like the debt coverage was getting worse at a slower rate. I'll add that from 1935 thru 1950, debt coverage was indeed truly improving as GDP was increasing faster than debt.
Reason: changed 1930 to 1935
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Pietertvl
Posts: 3589
Incept: 2007-12-05
NFA
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Quote: Pieter, if spending grows faster than income by definition debt is growing faster than output Obviously, Karl. That's why I noted that relationship. It should have been obvious to anyone back in the 90s when those data were repeatedly and relentlessly reported that we had a (debt growth) sustainability issue on our hands. [How many times did I remark about that to my wife???] The advantage to those data is that they are published monthly, widely reported, and that they carry that intuitive grounding in reality as people can grasp that logic at the household level. I really don't understand how the Fed could have overlooked that simple relationship, except willfully. And if its the latter, you either have to bind the Fed to that rule unconditionally, or deal with its inclination (like the rest of DC) to willfully overlook obstacles to its agenda .. kick the can or whatever. I doubt we lack the analytical tools to grasp impending insanity and keep it in check ... we lack the discipline ... and those who would enforce or impose that discipline ... are not part of the system's checks and balances, indeed the system seems to block those who would. That is what must be restored.
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"All the perplexities, confusion and distresses in America arise not from defects in the constitution or confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, as much from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation." ~ John Adams
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Mondocondo
Posts: 3684
Incept: 2007-12-03
Miami
Online
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"The Fed's current policy, indeed, has spawned yet another asset bubble, this time in stocks..."
I'm a bit confused by this statement. I thought the current rise in stock prices was a classic bear market rally, which is to be expected in bear markets. But if instead we are in the midst of a bubble in stock prices, then aren't we in a bull market? I don't mean to play semantics here, but the nature of this rally may well dictate whether it will go on for a while (a bull market) or will come to an end soon and continue its decline (a bear market). Or am I just fundamentally not understanding the analysis?
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Genesis
Posts: 130695
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Quote:I really don't understand how the Fed could have overlooked that simple relationship, except willfully. And if its the latter, you either have to bind the Fed to that rule unconditionally, or deal with its inclination (like the rest of DC) to willfully overlook obstacles to its agenda .. kick the can or whatever. Like I said, this has to be a matter of STATUTE, not desire.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Angrysaver
Posts: 15
Incept: 2009-10-05
usa
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<i>If this is the case, then it's obvious why a "hard money" position cannot work, and it's also why fractional reserve lending must be allowed in a capitalistic system.</i>
Mm,
The problem with your analysis is that it assumes that the vig should be gauranteed. The reality is that aggregate interest can't be above real growth. If lenders demand a profit above real growth that's fine. But understand that some lenders will lose money. We have to allow busts. In aggregate, we can't get out more than we earn. As the past 40 years have shown, adding inflation (theft) only worsens the situation as the insiders pass the losses off to the Government.
Imo, a workable system (gold, fiat, whatever) must eliminate economic privilege. The vast majority of economic privilege comes from access to government and inflation. Limit both, and either fiat or gold will work well.
Reason: added the word
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100percentprole
Posts: 27
Incept: 2009-07-01
San Jose, California
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This was a great ticker.
My gut feeling about the growth of currency is that the natural rate of increase is tied to population growth. This is my problem with the gold standard. If you have an increasing population but a basically fixed amount of currency, then you're in a horribly deflationary situation. If you're adding currency faster than people, without some real increase of assets for them to buy, then you're blowing bubbles.
Just a layman's theory, pay it no mind...
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Sigmaseek
Posts: 7
Incept: 2009-05-08
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In effect, your solution is to minimize the inflation rate by limiting the amount of currency available according to productivity, thereby eliminating the "inelasticity" problem of hard currency. Is what you are advocating a sort of central planning similar to the Fed but with "better" objectives? If so, it'll never work out as planned, no matter how altruistic the goal is. Ponzi Finance indicator or not. If you give a few people control, they will game and manipulate it in a way that they want to, even if the law is on our side. Our side already has laws in place to prosecute fraud, theft, and corruption, it's just that they're rarely used because the government is a big racketeering and extortion operation. Look at the Constitution and how it's been gamed and abused to help cause this mess. All of our sovereignty and rights have been handed over to a bunch of bankers.
On another note, it's interesting to note the spikes in inflation were during wartime. French Indian War, Revolution, 1812, Civil War.
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